Anybody with advice on vegetation killer?

Jason, very aware of differences. Are you a commercial farmer? Do you understand all the farming practices? Do you understand the differences between minimum till, no-till, cover crops, strip till etc? Not trying to be difficult but the general public has NO idea how/why agriculture got to where it is today. The next 5 years it is projected that there will be more changes in AG than have been in last 10-20 years. As much as some gardeners love to chant the montra that they are sustainable, they aren't any more than commercial AG. They aren't the first to rotate crops or use manure for fertilizers. Organic gardeners use chemicals, just approved chemicals. Why chemicals, because they couldn't control weeds/insects either.

seedcorn said:

Jason, very aware of differences. Are you a commercial farmer? Do you understand all the farming practices? Do you understand the differences between minimum till, no-till, cover crops, strip till etc? Not trying to be difficult but the general public has NO idea how/why agriculture got to where it is today. The next 5 years it is projected that there will be more changes in AG than have been in last 10-20 years. As much as some gardeners love to chant the montra that they are sustainable, they aren't any more than commercial AG. They aren't the first to rotate crops or use manure for fertilizers. Organic gardeners use chemicals, just approved chemicals. Why chemicals, because they couldn't control weeds/insects either.

Click to expand...

I'm aware of the differences.

"Not trying to be difficult but the general public has NO idea how/why agriculture got to where it is today."

The way I see it, a lot of it stems from the post-WWII era. They had a large surplus of all kinds of chemicals previously used in the war. What's a good way to get rid of these chemicals - sell them to farmers promising to get rid of all of their problems. Factories that previously made things such as bullets and planes turned to producing other things - such as heavy agricultural equipment, among other things. Understandably, producers took advantage of the people's desire for an easier life to make a profit. This deadly cycle continued until we lost nearly all of the old knowledge of how to go about things truly sustainably. Most of these "new" techniques in the realm of natural agriculture are in fact very old ways of doing things that were just rediscovered, and re-introduced. Not trying to say that there is a right or wrong way of going about things - what I'm trying to say here is that truly sustainable agriculture on a larger scale is very possible. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

By the way there is a difference between industrial, organic, and natural farming. If I need to I will give you the general idea behind natural farming, for now I'm out of time.

seedcorn said:

Jason, very aware of differences. Are you a commercial farmer? Do you understand all the farming practices? Do you understand the differences between minimum till, no-till, cover crops, strip till etc? Not trying to be difficult but the general public has NO idea how/why agriculture got to where it is today. The next 5 years it is projected that there will be more changes in AG than have been in last 10-20 years. As much as some gardeners love to chant the montra that they are sustainable, they aren't any more than commercial AG. They aren't the first to rotate crops or use manure for fertilizers. Organic gardeners use chemicals, just approved chemicals. Why chemicals, because they couldn't control weeds/insects either.

Click to expand...

Yes I am aware of farming practices. But I don't need to be; gardening like a farmer a waste of time, money, and effort.


"Do you understand the differences between minimum till, no-till, cover crops, strip till etc?" Why yes I do thanks.


"Not trying to be difficult but the general public has NO idea how/why agriculture got to where it is today. " I would agree with you; because on mass the public isn't comprised of farmers, 'generally.'


"The next 5 years it is projected that there will be more changes in AG than have been in last 10-20 years." The procedure of agriculture hasn't changed since before the Romans during the Aegean Bronze Age on the island of Crete as cataloged by Homer discussing the Minoan civilization, only the implementation has changed.

• Side note read Virgil's "The Georgics" if you haven't already. It's all about agriculture as seen in 29 B.C.
• I'm a bit of a history buff.

"As much as some gardeners love to chant the montra that they are sustainable, they aren't any more than commercial AG." Mantra.. A forest is a stable ecosystem that is sustainable if not how would they last millions of years? We don't need to fertilize or water a forest; in fact all of the nitrogen a forest will ever have is included in it already. Doesn't is stand to reason that a garden designed like a forest would also be a stable and sustainable system? If the focus of that garden was on food production doesn't it make sense that it would be a sustainable food forest garden?


· If a gardener designs their garden like a forest would you concede that it is more sustainable then commercial AG?

· Clearly you will admit to be mistaken here. Right?

o "We learn the most when we admit we are wrong - I do it regularly. -Someone, somewhere"


"Organic gardeners use chemicals, just approved chemicals. Why chemicals, because they couldn't control weeds/insects either." I'll agree that organic chemicals are still chemicals. And I’ll' even go further and say that even synthetic chemicals can be beneficial and not hurt an ecosystem if used properly and for slight adjustments. They typically are over used but that is a different discussion.


And I'll even say that Organic gardening if designed off of modern day commercial agriculture will require chemicals because the design of modern day commercial agriculture requires them.

1. Which brings me to my point from earlier; Gardens shouldn't be designed like commercial agriculture, because that design comes with all of the conventional problems of industrial agriculture which on a large scale are combated by external inputs.
2. To the home gardener these problems (weeds, pests, fertilizer, and hydrology) are design issues, nothing more.
3. Again the difference between mimicking natural systems (our forest garden design) and agricultural systems design based mostly on mono-cropping: Mono-cropping is what creates the agricultural design systems, home gardeners hardly ever mono-crop. So they need a system of design based on poly-cultures; agriculture has no framework for such as garden because conventional agriculture
   • can't utilize perennial nitrogen fixation like a home gardener can because of machinery, herbicide and financial risk factors.
   • can't utilize perennial dynamic nutrient accumulation like a home gardener can because of machinery, herbicide and financial risk factors.
   • can't focus on soil building efforts for more than the off season because of tight margins and financial risk
   • can't focus on building up mycorrhizae associations in any meaningful way because again they can't utilize perennial soil building strategies because of mono-cropping and because agricultural equipment compacts soil which damages soil biology; equipment + risk + mono-cropping = industrial agriculture design.

In closing I’d like to say I’m not poking my finger in the chest of farmers. I actually intellectually totally understand why farmers do things the way they do them and without being able to offer a better system for industrial agriculture I am happy to stand on the side lines and watch them do it. Even though I completely disagree with conventional practices on the scale of modern day agriculture I can't offer any better ideas. At best I can say we wouldn't need as much conventional agriculture if the world populations were home gardeners.

My argument has been that modern day agricultural practices do not apply to the home gardener, and I feel like I have made that point.

I am going to put this message into a new topic for further debate.

Thanks,

@TheSeedObsesser, WWII ended in 40's. Chemicals didn't hit Ag till 70's. In the 60's before commercial fertilizers were widely used.

Equipment replaced horses due to efficiencies. Do math to feed 10-12 working draft horses plus get bills, etc. farmers goals are to make a living off of farm. For most of us gardening is a hobby or pleasure-definetly not work. IF we had to depend upon garden, think we would see a lot of attitude adjustments.

seedcorn said:

For most of us gardening is a hobby or pleasure-definetly not work. IF we had to depend upon garden, think we would see a lot of attitude adjustments.

Click to expand...

I actually agree with this. But I think those with perennial production would be sitting in a more comfortable seat than annual gardeners. It is just more stable in my opinion.

seedcorn said:

@TheSeedObsesser, WWII ended in 40's. Chemicals didn't hit Ag till 70's. In the 60's before commercial fertilizers were widely used.

Equipment replaced horses due to efficiencies. Do math to feed 10-12 working draft horses plus get bills, etc. farmers goals are to make a living off of farm. For most of us gardening is a hobby or pleasure-definetly not work. IF we had to depend upon garden, think we would see a lot of attitude adjustments.

Click to expand...

Thanks for correcting me there, I've been in a strange state of mind lately. I might have been thinking about when chemicals started entering the food system as an actual ingredient. That was Norman Borlaug and the Green Revolution that introduced chemicals into the agricultural system (I think?).

I think the fact that people are constantly worried about efficiency is a bad thing. Europe was never really that sustainable or efficient to begin with, look at it through time and you might notice that (or not). The "Europen way" (including the U.S. and other countries whose people are of European origin) has always been pretty labor - intensive, loads of work for little return, or at least the way I see it. I think that many other cultures were closer to the right way of going about things.

Parts of Europe are very efficient and parts are very inefficient. Countries like France are very labor intensive so that people have jobs.

Many reasons people are concerned about efficiencies are:
have to cash flow to make a living
to feed the poor.
We in America as a nation have never known food less. We are blessed.

Hey all, we recognize that some of these topics can get kinda heated, so let's make sure we remain respectful so we can keep the discussion going without trouble.

Thanks!

Since I began this thread, I thought I'd add some stuff that I chose NOT to initially.
1) According to an Environmental Science Professor who taught 3 classes that I took about a decade ago
(a) Use correct insecticides/herbicides sparingly
(b) Use manure/compost in the Fall to fertilize for Spring planting
( I got my "A's", still have my notes, and this Professor wanted everybody to give up chemical fertilizers, herbicides and insecticides, if possible, even then. )

2) Nobody has used any chemicals on my 5 acres since we bought the property in 1999.

3) MY fertilizer comes from my three horses and (right now) 6 chickens.

I know about weed seeds staying in the soil for even decades. I have heard someone say recently that weeds have the purpose of filling in where the soil has been exposed to keep it from blowing away. I agree. I don't hate weeds, just want to control them.

I have burdock growing along my fence lines. Here is what the fences look like:

(Buster Brown was trying to take the halter off of Sweet Cup&Cakes)
THIS is where I want to kill all vegetation for one year, bc it is SOOOOOO time consuming to cover or chop or cut, and the burdock has increased over the years. It is a 2 year crop. The first year you get leaves, and no seeds until year #2. If I can break that cycle, I'll greatly reduce the number of burdock.
Burdock leaves are medicinal and my horses do eat them, but they don't like them enough to clean up the mass quantity. A horse will eat everything else around a soybean in his grain bowl and leave the one thing that he/she doesn't like. Thanks, ponies!!
I already cut it down and burn it, especially this winter, but you can't help miss some of the seeds.

@ducks4you get a goat or sheep, and tie to a stretch of fence you want cleared. It would take some time, but you could get fence clean, then butcher the goat or sheep. Basically it's free feed, why waste it? @jasonvivier do you subscribe to. Acres USA magazine? There was recently an article on cover crops done on a large farm and they used a roller to break over the cover crop. This killed it and provided mulch for the following crop. Good magazine, it's right up your alley.