Price increases and shortages

[Gardening with Rabbits]

I suppose, now that I think of it, that I really should have asked if a SETTLED, AGRIULTURAL type civilization can do it. I is manifest that hunter gatherers can. After all, every "uncontacted" tribe left has basically not been in contact with much of anyone for thousands of years. The people on North Sentinel Island off India haven't really been in contact with anyone since the Stone Age (and seem to be determined to keep it that way!)

I guess through all of history there have been the hunter gathers and the farmers. In the Bible Abraham and others, rich with cattle and goods, could make clothes, plenty of food. Through history it has been that way and if you look at people in other countries who maybe not hunters or gathers but living in villages with not much of modern conveniences, they have something else, strength and health. I see a lot of people from other countries coming here and I hear them speaking different languages in the stores and just shocked at their strength and healthy looking. I look in their carts and they are buying ingredients and not prepacked food and then I look at Americans way fat, swollen feet and legs, oxygen tanks, in those motorized carts. I saw a woman at Costco in a motorized cart and was trying to pull something off the shelf and I saw it was a case of Red Bull. If something happens where stores are closed and people just go back to living like 100 years ago, I am not sure who can survive handling a hoe, weeding a garden, feeding chickens, plucking a chicken, chopping firewood, cooking from scratch, washing diapers and hanging up on the line and no cell phones. Another thing I noticed, Americans young and old shopping with their cell phones and heads down when standing in line and I notice these other people not doing that. I just wonder what a cultural shock it might be to people moving here thinking they are coming to the land of plenty and how it has changed.

 

[Gardening with Rabbits]

I hear the news more and more saying the dollar might or will collapse. I wonder just how bad things could be. Take a wheelbarrow of dollars to buy a loaf of bread? High taxes? High prices? No jobs? No oil? Electric bills sky high? No fertilizer? No shoes from China? Riots? Burning cities? Crime out of control? People raiding gardens and killing cattle? Stealing chickens? How can anybody stock up enough to face this? Turn into Venezuela? I see people just stocking up all kinds of food but when it runs out then have to face the world and how can you stock up food and eat like a rich person and know family members or neighbors are hungry? I heard some of our great leaders saying we do not need so many choices of products on the shelves. We need to be on the same level as some of those villages that do not have a thermostat set at 70 or have a thermostat at all. Share our wealth, but it will only last a little while and then everything collapses and again, somebody has to plant seeds and run the tractors and use the gas and oil to take the food to the stores and stock the shelves with something or rich and poor, white and all colors will die.

 

[Pulsegleaner]

There is a sort of cute funny thing on Facebook shared now and then.

We Didn't Have the "Green Thing" Back In My Day

In the line at the store, the cashier told the older woman that plastic bags weren't good
for the environment. The woman apologized to her and explained, we didn't have the
"green thing" back in my day.
That's right, they didn't have the "green thing" in her day. Back then, they returned their
milk bottles, Coke bottles and beer bottles to the store. The store sent them back to the
plant to be washed and sterilized and refilled, using the same bottles over and over. So
they really were recycled. But they didn't have the "green thing" back in her day.
In her day, they walked up stairs, because they didn't have an escalator in every store
and office building. They walked to the grocery store and didn't climb into a 300-
horsepower machine every time they had to go two blocks. But she's right. They didn't
have the "green thing" in her day.
Back then, they washed the baby's diapers because they didn't have the throw-away
kind? They dried clothes on a line, not in an energy gobbling machine burning up 220
volts wind and solar power really did dry the clothes. Kids got hand-me-down clothes
from their brothers or sisters, not always brand-new clothing.? But that old lady is right,
they didn't have the "green thing" back in her day.
Back then, they had one TV, or radio, in the house not a TV in every room. And the TV
had a small screen the size of a pizza dish, not a screen the size of the state of Montana.
In the kitchen, they blended and stirred by hand because they didn't have electric
machines to do everything for you. When they packaged a fragile item to send in the
mail, they used wadded up newspaper to cushion it, not Styrofoam or plastic bubble
wrap.
Back then, they didn't fire up an engine and burn gasoline just to cut the lawn. They used
a push mower that ran on human power. They exercised by working so they didn't need
to go to a health club to run on treadmills that operate on electricity. But she's right, they
didn't have the "green thing" back then.
They drank from a fountain when they were thirsty, instead of using a cup or a plastic
bottle every time they had a drink of water. They refilled pens with ink, instead of buying
a new pen, and they replaced the razor blades in a razor instead of throwing away the
whole razor just because the blade got dull. But they didn't have the "green thing" back
then.
Back then, people took the streetcar and kids rode their bikes to school or rode the
school bus instead of turning their moms into a 24-hour taxi service. They had one
electrical outlet in a room, not an entire bank of sockets to power a dozen appliances.
And they didn't need a computerized gadget to receive a signal beamed from satellites
2,000 miles out in space in order to find the nearest pizza joint.

That's all true (apart from the fact that such old people, unless they lived in a pretty large city, probably didn't HAVE more than one pizza joint, if any.)

All the same, THOSE people probably got the exact same tongue lashing from THIER old people. THOSE people probably thought it was lucky and lazy to be ABLE to buy replacement razor blades, when they had to get out a whetstone and sharpen theirs themselves. Returning your bottles to be refilled sounds like a lot of work to us modern people, but at least they HAD bottles to start with, they didn't have to take their own jugs to the general store (and hope that what the storekeeper filled it with was the same thing you had ordered, and he hadn't "cut it" with something cheaper or dangerous. Kids may have gotten hand-me-down clothes, but at least (generally) their parents didn't have to actually MAKE those clothes themselves. Kids might have had to ride their bikes or take the bus to school, but at least they HAD those options, instead of having to walk it no matter HOW far it was (and actually, having the ability to go to a school in the FIRST PLACE.) A Streetcar probably seemed like a luxury to people who had grown up with either walking everywhere or riding a horse (if you could afford one). They may have had one electrical outlet in each room, but at least they had ELECTRICITY. They may have exercised by doing chores and other work, but they generally didn't have to toil day and night every day just to stay alive. They may have made most of their own food, but most of them didn't have to grow, harvest, process and store it all themselves.

To be honest, there comes a point where "When I was your age" stops sounding like a complaint about how ungrateful the current generation is, and more like a bunch of people trying to do their own, live version of "The Four Yorkshiremen" sketch.

 

[Pulsegleaner]

I hear the news more and more saying the dollar might or will collapse. I wonder just how bad things could be. Take a wheelbarrow of dollars to buy a loaf of bread? High taxes? High prices? No jobs? No oil? Electric bills sky high? No fertilizer? No shoes from China? Riots? Burning cities? Crime out of control? People raiding gardens and killing cattle? Stealing chickens? How can anybody stock up enough to face this? Turn into Venezuela? I see people just stocking up all kinds of food but when it runs out then have to face the world and how can you stock up food and eat like a rich person and know family members or neighbors are hungry? I heard some of our great leaders saying we do not need so many choices of products on the shelves. We need to be on the same level as some of those villages that do not have a thermostat set at 70 or have a thermostat at all. Share our wealth, but it will only last a little while and then everything collapses and again, somebody has to plant seeds and run the tractors and use the gas and oil to take the food to the stores and stock the shelves with something or rich and poor, white and all colors will die.

Actually I can see things far more dire on the horizon, potentially. Forget about people doing occasional raids on cattle and gardens, I have little doubt that a lot of the "preppers" (especially the ones that are focusing more on accumulation of weaponry rather than seed or food), are planning that, when their own personal stashes run out, they will simply make raiding their lifestyle, first for food and goods and later (when they have solidified their power) for slaves to run their plantations. Ultimately, all the skill in producing food in the world doesn't do you a lick of good if you don't have the ability to DEFEND it. Some may also kill other people just to LESSEN the number of competitors for food.

I also expect that, in the face of a society collapse, there is probably very soon going to be another mass extinction. Smart people (and there are plenty of them on ALL sides of the issue) will know that Gasoline has a pretty short shelf life, so it will be a "use it while you can" policy. So does gunpowder. And the odds of electricity TOTALLY going away is actually pretty remote (the kind that gets sent directly to everyone's homes will probably go, but there are enough people who know how to make and maintain generators that there will probably still be isolated pockets of local electricity for some time). So I SUSPECT that, when hunting trips are arranged in that time, they are going to say "screw bag limits". Go up with a big train of large carriers, shoot EVERY game animal you can find (if you wait, you never know if it will still BE there the next time.) haul it all back, and preserve it the best you can. They probably also kill off ALL remaining predators, as they are competition for the game. Eventually, we could be looking at a world where food you produce yourself is the ONLY available food; where "nature" is more or less a barren wasteland. (If you think that is impossible, remember, the top half of Africa was a lush forest until the Romans and comparable ancient people started cutting down all the trees for lumber.)

What the solution to this is, I have no idea. Some sort of authoritarian communism to keep everyone at the bare base level of consumption SOUNDS like a good solution, but the problem is that whoever you put in charge is invariably going to game the system so that THEY can get more. People being people, no matter whether you rely on communism or capitalism, you more or less wind up with despotism eventually (As I said before "The Reason Communism never works long term is that it overestimates how good people are, the reason Capitalisms never works long term is that it underestimates how evil people are.")

About the only answer I can think of would be some kind of religion/philosophy that stressed and enshrined perfect selflessness as its key virtue. And I don't mean the kind of selflessness Christianity supposedly stresses. I mean a kind that works to literally KILL the self, to remove every last shred of ego so that people think ONLY of the common good, NEVER about themselves. Basically a people that thought like bees or ants. But, short of universal brain surgery or some sort of genetic engineering, that is probably impossible.

 

[flowerbug]

I hear the news more and more saying the dollar might or will collapse. I wonder just how bad things could be. Take a wheelbarrow of dollars to buy a loaf of bread? High taxes? High prices? No jobs? No oil? Electric bills sky high? No fertilizer? No shoes from China? Riots? Burning cities? Crime out of control? People raiding gardens and killing cattle? Stealing chickens? How can anybody stock up enough to face this? Turn into Venezuela? I see people just stocking up all kinds of food but when it runs out then have to face the world and how can you stock up food and eat like a rich person and know family members or neighbors are hungry? I heard some of our great leaders saying we do not need so many choices of products on the shelves. We need to be on the same level as some of those villages that do not have a thermostat set at 70 or have a thermostat at all. Share our wealth, but it will only last a little while and then everything collapses and again, somebody has to plant seeds and run the tractors and use the gas and oil to take the food to the stores and stock the shelves with something or rich and poor, white and all colors will die.

there are fear mongers all over the place. if you spend a lot of time watching tv that's what they push. sensationalism.

the USoA economy is pretty strong and the dollar's value comes from that and how much we produce. i'm not afraid of the dollar crashing nearly as much as i am afraid of how poorly people treat the land, the air, water and animals.

turn off the tv and find better things to do with your mind.

 

[baymule]

The dollar’s value comes from it being the petrodollar. Meaning that countries around the world must exchange their currency for American dollars to buy oil and gas. High demand creates value.

Russia is now demanding that countries pay Russia in rubles, not petrodollars. China bought oil from Saudi Arabia and did not use the petrodollar. The petrodollar empire is beginning to come apart and no one is paying attention.

@Gardening with Rabbits you have already found better things to do with your mind. You may not be able to do much about a lot of it, but being aware, you might be better able to face hard times. Look up Breton Woods and petrodollar, they go hand in hand.

 

[AMKuska]

There is a sort of cute funny thing on Facebook shared now and then.

We Didn't Have the "Green Thing" Back In My Day

In the line at the store, the cashier told the older woman that plastic bags weren't good
for the environment. The woman apologized to her and explained, we didn't have the
"green thing" back in my day.
That's right, they didn't have the "green thing" in her day. Back then, they returned their
milk bottles, Coke bottles and beer bottles to the store. The store sent them back to the
plant to be washed and sterilized and refilled, using the same bottles over and over. So
they really were recycled. But they didn't have the "green thing" back in her day.
In her day, they walked up stairs, because they didn't have an escalator in every store
and office building. They walked to the grocery store and didn't climb into a 300-
horsepower machine every time they had to go two blocks. But she's right. They didn't
have the "green thing" in her day.
Back then, they washed the baby's diapers because they didn't have the throw-away
kind? They dried clothes on a line, not in an energy gobbling machine burning up 220
volts wind and solar power really did dry the clothes. Kids got hand-me-down clothes
from their brothers or sisters, not always brand-new clothing.? But that old lady is right,
they didn't have the "green thing" back in her day.
Back then, they had one TV, or radio, in the house not a TV in every room. And the TV
had a small screen the size of a pizza dish, not a screen the size of the state of Montana.
In the kitchen, they blended and stirred by hand because they didn't have electric
machines to do everything for you. When they packaged a fragile item to send in the
mail, they used wadded up newspaper to cushion it, not Styrofoam or plastic bubble
wrap.
Back then, they didn't fire up an engine and burn gasoline just to cut the lawn. They used
a push mower that ran on human power. They exercised by working so they didn't need
to go to a health club to run on treadmills that operate on electricity. But she's right, they
didn't have the "green thing" back then.
They drank from a fountain when they were thirsty, instead of using a cup or a plastic
bottle every time they had a drink of water. They refilled pens with ink, instead of buying
a new pen, and they replaced the razor blades in a razor instead of throwing away the
whole razor just because the blade got dull. But they didn't have the "green thing" back
then.
Back then, people took the streetcar and kids rode their bikes to school or rode the
school bus instead of turning their moms into a 24-hour taxi service. They had one
electrical outlet in a room, not an entire bank of sockets to power a dozen appliances.
And they didn't need a computerized gadget to receive a signal beamed from satellites
2,000 miles out in space in order to find the nearest pizza joint.

Yes! Exactly! Love it.

 

[Pulsegleaner]

there are fear mongers all over the place. if you spend a lot of time watching tv that's what they push. sensationalism.

the USoA economy is pretty strong and the dollar's value comes from that and how much we produce. i'm not afraid of the dollar crashing nearly as much as i am afraid of how poorly people treat the land, the air, water and animals.

turn off the tv and find better things to do with your mind.

Over time, I have heard a lot of people talk about bombing, or being bombed "Back to the Stone Age". I'm not entirely sure that is actually POSSIBLE. I can certainly see someone being bombed back to the pre-Industrial Age. But bombing someone back to the Stone Age would basically require people more or less losing EVERY piece of knowledge they have, all the way back to agriculture, fire, the wheel, and language. A lot of those things have been around for a long time by now, and are so deeply entrenched in people that I find it hard to believe one could end them without ending people themselves. I mean, even most of the long term hunter gatherer and migratory people did SOME degree of agriculture (even if it just meant tossing seeds of useful plants around where they tended to go so as to make more of them.) To knock that out, you'd pretty much have to actually knock out human intellect.

And I think this is probably a good thing, since I ALSO think that, if we ever WERE to revert to the Stone Age, it would take a lot longer for us to climb our way back up, if we ever could. Thanks to millennia of doing things like metalworking, stone cutting etc. I imagine a lot of the easy to get at supplies of ore and usable stone are largely exhausted. And thanks to modern technology in metallurgy, quite a lot of the metal we HAVE mined over time is probably now "locked up" in alloys that would be beyond the capacity of a low tech furnace to re-melt or refine, making it effectively useless one whatever device I came from broke. Part of the reason mining is now such a complicated high tech business is that it HAS to be to actually get any metal out of the ground. We're already running out of accessible oil and coal with the the tech we have (and I don't care if you say the coal an oil are bad for the environment. They certainly ARE but they WERE necessary for us to climb technologically up to where we are now, and would be again if we had to start over.) Imagine how we would fare if our tech went back to "pretty much can pick up bitumen off the ground if any seeps up." Our current way of life may not be sustainable, but given the mess we've made of the Earth so far, I'm not sure that a totally non-tech lifestyle would work for us anymore either.

 

[Rhodie Ranch]

I just bought a place today. In Vancouver WA. 2.61 acres on a slight hill, with no upscale homes around it, if you know what I mean. I see an alpaca and some old horses in some of the places. I'll bet there will be protection there....

I'm getting ready even at the old age of 67, to try to sustain myself as best I can, given hubs diagnosis and health. First thing we will do is to fence it. And a gate.

 

[Rhodie Ranch]

@baymule I just looked up Bretton Woods system. I'm no longer capable of understanding the depth of what it says. Give me a scientific doc and I can still understand....