nachoqtpie
Deeply Rooted
I was just reading a bit and a friend of mine sent me this!!
Goodbye 4-H??
- Thread starter nachoqtpie
- Start date
Greenthumb18
Deeply Rooted
That is really crossing the line.... 
How can the government take farming life away from kids 
. It doesn't make any sense to me.
I think what we really need is a new president who can stand by the American lifestyle, not fight it.
It's the farming lifestyle we need more of and to protect it and teach the kids so they can pass on that lifestyle in their generation.
What is wrong with this government...... they sure do get me fired up
.
How can the government take farming life away from kids . It doesn't make any sense to me.I think what we really need is a new president who can stand by the American lifestyle, not fight it.
It's the farming lifestyle we need more of and to protect it and teach the kids so they can pass on that lifestyle in their generation.
What is wrong with this government...... they sure do get me fired up
.wsmoak
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:::sigh::: You might look for a *slightly* less biased news source.
After a quick search, here's one that looks more reasonable: http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Work-rule-change-for-kids-on-family-farms-spark-3478705.php
In short, the new rule was too vague and after getting a lot of comments, they are going to re-propose it this summer with better definitions.
Unfortunately, "family farm" is really difficult to define nowadays with the complicated corporate ownership structures that are in place.
-Wendy
After a quick search, here's one that looks more reasonable: http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Work-rule-change-for-kids-on-family-farms-spark-3478705.php
In short, the new rule was too vague and after getting a lot of comments, they are going to re-propose it this summer with better definitions.
Unfortunately, "family farm" is really difficult to define nowadays with the complicated corporate ownership structures that are in place.
-Wendy
- Thread starter
- #4
nachoqtpie
Deeply Rooted
Biased or not, you can't deny this country is headed to hell in a handbasket!
It sure wasn't like this when I was younger, and I'm only 31! I remember paying 95c a gallon for gas as a teenager a, and $1 for a gallon of milk. Heck, I remember being able to go to my friends family dairy farm and getting fresh milk from them, the kind you have to shake every morning! Now, you can't buy milk unless its been processed, can't save your own seed and growit again the next year for fear of being sued for having cross pollinated seeds, can't find meat in the grocery that hast been pumped ull of hormones and medication unless you pay an arm and a leg for it.
What happened to th America that *I* knew growing up?
I can't even begin to think about all the changes that have happened in some of y'alls lifetimes.
It sure wasn't like this when I was younger, and I'm only 31! I remember paying 95c a gallon for gas as a teenager a, and $1 for a gallon of milk. Heck, I remember being able to go to my friends family dairy farm and getting fresh milk from them, the kind you have to shake every morning! Now, you can't buy milk unless its been processed, can't save your own seed and growit again the next year for fear of being sued for having cross pollinated seeds, can't find meat in the grocery that hast been pumped ull of hormones and medication unless you pay an arm and a leg for it.
What happened to th America that *I* knew growing up?
I can't even begin to think about all the changes that have happened in some of y'alls lifetimes.
digitS'
Garden Master
Farming is a dangerous life.
There isn't 1 kid who grows up on a farm who couldn't tell some sad story of accidents. My sister-in-law was just out of her twenties when a tractor turned over on her and she was killed.
I sat in the cab of a running combine while the farmer and the kid helping him tried to adjust the header. The kid took a look at me and jumped in the header! Scared the be-jeebers outta me! I sat for 10 minutes with my hands on the top of my head afraid that some lever would get pushed on the console in front of me.
In the greenhouse where I worked, the kid they hired for the summer fell thru the roof. He had to be sown back together in layers. Darn lucky he only fell thru the glass and it was out of his way when he hit the ground.
I had a lung test as part of a physical a couple of years ago. The MD said that the 20 years of smoking I reported showed in my lungs. I didn't say anything about growing up where smug pots this time of year blackened the air so bad I had trouble seeing across the road when I walked to my school bus stop a mile away every school morning. We were surrounded on 3 sides by orchards. Harry & David and their Bear Creek Orchards were just across the field to the east. I didn't say how I smoked cigarettes even when I was burning off hundreds (thousands) of acres of grass fields after harvest because there's no nicotine in burning bluegrass, don't you know. Happened every year - folks need bluegrass seed for their lawns, of course.
Steve
There isn't 1 kid who grows up on a farm who couldn't tell some sad story of accidents. My sister-in-law was just out of her twenties when a tractor turned over on her and she was killed.
I sat in the cab of a running combine while the farmer and the kid helping him tried to adjust the header. The kid took a look at me and jumped in the header! Scared the be-jeebers outta me! I sat for 10 minutes with my hands on the top of my head afraid that some lever would get pushed on the console in front of me.
In the greenhouse where I worked, the kid they hired for the summer fell thru the roof. He had to be sown back together in layers. Darn lucky he only fell thru the glass and it was out of his way when he hit the ground.
I had a lung test as part of a physical a couple of years ago. The MD said that the 20 years of smoking I reported showed in my lungs. I didn't say anything about growing up where smug pots this time of year blackened the air so bad I had trouble seeing across the road when I walked to my school bus stop a mile away every school morning. We were surrounded on 3 sides by orchards. Harry & David and their Bear Creek Orchards were just across the field to the east. I didn't say how I smoked cigarettes even when I was burning off hundreds (thousands) of acres of grass fields after harvest because there's no nicotine in burning bluegrass, don't you know. Happened every year - folks need bluegrass seed for their lawns, of course.
Steve
- Thread starter
- #6
nachoqtpie
Deeply Rooted
I'm not going to deny that farming is dangerous, but so is almost every other occupation other than sitting behind a desk, which has it's own set of hazards.
My mom was an Engineer for Honda for my entire life. She was also part of the committee that investigated any accidents in the plant. I cannot tell you how many times I seen pictures of people with gashes on their head, arms, etc. I remember one time a guy tripped over his untied boot string and almost cut his hand completely off because he was unrolling steel to go into the press!
I've fallen out of hay mows onto concrete floor, been kicked in the head, knees, legs, etc by horses, breath hay chaff all summer. When I was 16, one of my best friends worked at McDonalds, she slipped and her arm went into the fryer. She still has the scars! Working is dangerous no matter where you are.
Is the next generation of farmers just supposed to learn when they're 18?
My mom was an Engineer for Honda for my entire life. She was also part of the committee that investigated any accidents in the plant. I cannot tell you how many times I seen pictures of people with gashes on their head, arms, etc. I remember one time a guy tripped over his untied boot string and almost cut his hand completely off because he was unrolling steel to go into the press!
I've fallen out of hay mows onto concrete floor, been kicked in the head, knees, legs, etc by horses, breath hay chaff all summer. When I was 16, one of my best friends worked at McDonalds, she slipped and her arm went into the fryer. She still has the scars! Working is dangerous no matter where you are.
Is the next generation of farmers just supposed to learn when they're 18?
curly_kate
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What worries me is that I know so many kids who absolutely LOVE to be given responsibilities on the farm. I've taught rural kids with disabilities, and being able to accomplish something on with their animals is the only sense of success they ever really experience. The other thing I wonder is how they are going to enforce a law like this. Would they send the cops out to do random checks to make sure only family members are working on the farm? Will the kids have to carry some kind of proof of that they are relations? It just sounds like another well-intentioned law that isn't really going to be effective anyway.
And in regards to the danger of a desk job: http://www.npr.org/2011/04/25/135575490/sitting-all-day-worse-for-you-than-you-might-think.
And in regards to the danger of a desk job: http://www.npr.org/2011/04/25/135575490/sitting-all-day-worse-for-you-than-you-might-think.
Ridgerunner
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Who can argue against child safety? We all want to protect each and every one of our children. We get caught up in the emotion and are read to do about anything. But there are limits. At some point, it becomes too expensive to save everyone. This one in the auto industry is an example of one that is under review. Notice it was signed by GW Bush and delayed under the current administration.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-28/rear-view-camera-rule-delayed-again-by-u-s-.html
At 31 you wonder what has happened to the world. Wow! Im a little older. But the world has changed and will keep changing. But well keep muddling through. Somehow.
I paid a quarter a gallon for gasoline, less when the gas stations in town had a gas war. I dont know what milk was a gallon since we milked our own cow, but if you run those costs through inflation you may find they are not as high as they now seem. I put up hay for $0.50 per hour and was glad to get it. You still can get fresh whole milk in a lot of states without milking your own. It varies state by state, but most allow some type of partial ownership of a way around it. Maybe try buying it for animal consumption. If you look at the statistics youll see that the number of health related illnesses tied to milk has dropped from really a lot to almost nothing since the pasteurization laws went onto effect. Im not going to look them up this morning, but it is mind-blowing how much they have dropped. I saved my own seed every year and dont worry about it, but, yeah, there have been some things happen that are troubling. I cant blow that one off. The medications are why you dont have to pay an arm and a leg for meat. Its called mass production. I dont like it either. My chickens never see any type of antibiotic or anything else unless they have to be treated for something specific. When we buy red meat, we do pay a lot more, not just because of the hormones and medications, but the additives too.
The world has changed. On the small subsistence farm I grew up on, we used two draft horses, one weighing about 1700 pounds and the other probably was about 2000. Now people use tractors on much larger commercial farms. Which is safer for kids to be around and work with? You can get hurt with either. I grew up using an ax. I cleared fencerows with an ax, split firewood, split firewood into kindling, trimmed trees into fence posts, took off a lot of chickens heads, and used one to cut a red cedar for our Christmas tree every year for several years. How many farm kids still grow up using an ax? I doubt that many process chickens anymore and they would probably use a chain saw or hydraulic splitter for the other stuff, if they do it at all.
My point is that we have this bucolic idealistic view about what growing up on a farm is like, and it isnt like that anymore for the vast majority that actually grow up on farms these days, let alone all the people raised in the city. The chores are different and the equipment we use is different. Im not saying a double bladed ax isnt dangerous. All I had to do was look at my uncles forehead to see what an ax can do if you dont clear your backswing, but how much damage can a chain saw do? Which would you rather see your 10 year old child using, even if he grew up with it? Then think about a city kid with no real background with either trying to earn some spending money.
This law is back under review, just like the system is supposed to work. How far do you take it? A big problem is putting down on paper something that covers everybody. You have to define a family farm. Anymore, thats not easy with all the incorporation and such for tax purposes. You have to come up with realistic definitions for machinery. Try putting that in writing. Do you limit the exemptions to the owners children or do you allow blood relatives to help? Do you stop at first cousins, once removed? I helped uncles, cousins, and just neighbors put up hay and tobacco when I was well under 16. How do you handle the children of migratory workers, those that follow the harvest north every year. Children often are a big part of the family earnings from that. There are so many nuances that this one is going to be real hard. A lot of people will not be pleased.
I dont like the extremes we coddle out kids anymore, but the world is different. Most people with kids grow up in suburbia. Do you know how hard it is to find meaningful chores for those kids, let alone real work? Loading or unloading the dishwasher is now a major chore. I spent hours under that July and August sun with a hoe in my hand. There was no shade out there. When we put up hay, that was from daylight until it was done. How long does it take to take out the trash?
A lot of what I did would be considered cruel and unusual and could probably land my parents in serious trouble if they did it today and somebody complained. When we put up tobacco, Id climb 20 to 25 feet up in the barn and straddle poles sometimes not nailed down to hang the tobacco. I really liked the barns that had those poles nailed down and spaced 4-1/2 feet apart instead of 5 feet. My legs were kind of short. I wanted to go that high because I handled a lot less and I did not have to raise it that high. The guy below me had to hang a lot more plus bend and stretch a lot more. If someone saw a 13 year old doing that these days, that would probably be child endangerment. I actually enjoyed it.
I want kids to be able to help on their parents farm. I want them to learn how to work. And Im willing to let then take some risks. I believe you have to set some limits on the big commercial farms, but I dont know what those limits should be. You cant just turn inexperienced kid loose operating heavy equipment with a lot of cutting and crushing moving parts unsupervised. Im glad Im not trying to put those limits in writing.
I know this is a lot of rambling and maybe not all of it is really to your point, but it was fun to write.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-28/rear-view-camera-rule-delayed-again-by-u-s-.html
At 31 you wonder what has happened to the world. Wow! Im a little older. But the world has changed and will keep changing. But well keep muddling through. Somehow.
I paid a quarter a gallon for gasoline, less when the gas stations in town had a gas war. I dont know what milk was a gallon since we milked our own cow, but if you run those costs through inflation you may find they are not as high as they now seem. I put up hay for $0.50 per hour and was glad to get it. You still can get fresh whole milk in a lot of states without milking your own. It varies state by state, but most allow some type of partial ownership of a way around it. Maybe try buying it for animal consumption. If you look at the statistics youll see that the number of health related illnesses tied to milk has dropped from really a lot to almost nothing since the pasteurization laws went onto effect. Im not going to look them up this morning, but it is mind-blowing how much they have dropped. I saved my own seed every year and dont worry about it, but, yeah, there have been some things happen that are troubling. I cant blow that one off. The medications are why you dont have to pay an arm and a leg for meat. Its called mass production. I dont like it either. My chickens never see any type of antibiotic or anything else unless they have to be treated for something specific. When we buy red meat, we do pay a lot more, not just because of the hormones and medications, but the additives too.
The world has changed. On the small subsistence farm I grew up on, we used two draft horses, one weighing about 1700 pounds and the other probably was about 2000. Now people use tractors on much larger commercial farms. Which is safer for kids to be around and work with? You can get hurt with either. I grew up using an ax. I cleared fencerows with an ax, split firewood, split firewood into kindling, trimmed trees into fence posts, took off a lot of chickens heads, and used one to cut a red cedar for our Christmas tree every year for several years. How many farm kids still grow up using an ax? I doubt that many process chickens anymore and they would probably use a chain saw or hydraulic splitter for the other stuff, if they do it at all.
My point is that we have this bucolic idealistic view about what growing up on a farm is like, and it isnt like that anymore for the vast majority that actually grow up on farms these days, let alone all the people raised in the city. The chores are different and the equipment we use is different. Im not saying a double bladed ax isnt dangerous. All I had to do was look at my uncles forehead to see what an ax can do if you dont clear your backswing, but how much damage can a chain saw do? Which would you rather see your 10 year old child using, even if he grew up with it? Then think about a city kid with no real background with either trying to earn some spending money.
This law is back under review, just like the system is supposed to work. How far do you take it? A big problem is putting down on paper something that covers everybody. You have to define a family farm. Anymore, thats not easy with all the incorporation and such for tax purposes. You have to come up with realistic definitions for machinery. Try putting that in writing. Do you limit the exemptions to the owners children or do you allow blood relatives to help? Do you stop at first cousins, once removed? I helped uncles, cousins, and just neighbors put up hay and tobacco when I was well under 16. How do you handle the children of migratory workers, those that follow the harvest north every year. Children often are a big part of the family earnings from that. There are so many nuances that this one is going to be real hard. A lot of people will not be pleased.
I dont like the extremes we coddle out kids anymore, but the world is different. Most people with kids grow up in suburbia. Do you know how hard it is to find meaningful chores for those kids, let alone real work? Loading or unloading the dishwasher is now a major chore. I spent hours under that July and August sun with a hoe in my hand. There was no shade out there. When we put up hay, that was from daylight until it was done. How long does it take to take out the trash?
A lot of what I did would be considered cruel and unusual and could probably land my parents in serious trouble if they did it today and somebody complained. When we put up tobacco, Id climb 20 to 25 feet up in the barn and straddle poles sometimes not nailed down to hang the tobacco. I really liked the barns that had those poles nailed down and spaced 4-1/2 feet apart instead of 5 feet. My legs were kind of short. I wanted to go that high because I handled a lot less and I did not have to raise it that high. The guy below me had to hang a lot more plus bend and stretch a lot more. If someone saw a 13 year old doing that these days, that would probably be child endangerment. I actually enjoyed it.
I want kids to be able to help on their parents farm. I want them to learn how to work. And Im willing to let then take some risks. I believe you have to set some limits on the big commercial farms, but I dont know what those limits should be. You cant just turn inexperienced kid loose operating heavy equipment with a lot of cutting and crushing moving parts unsupervised. Im glad Im not trying to put those limits in writing.
I know this is a lot of rambling and maybe not all of it is really to your point, but it was fun to write.
so lucky
Garden Master
Made sense to me, Ridgerunner. I'm an old timer, too. It is just going to be hard for people who have never worked on a farm to make rules for those who do work on farms. Probably the same for any profession. I believe there are "rules" in some districts that say a teacher can't touch or hug a student now. Can't hug a first grader with an "owie"? Can't give a pat on the back to a kid that got his times-tables right for the first time? :/
We just have a shortage of common sense and moderation in the people who make the rules. (and in the greedy few who try to take advantage of situations)
I truly wish politicians would quit aiming for the extreme edges and come to the middle. Even those folks who seem to have a good idea or two end up embracing much more extreme ideas, to please the very vocal few who make the most noise.
I also wish we could find out who is telling the truth. Outright lies seem to be rampant on both sides of the political spectrum. Once a lie is suggested, it is reported as truth, then takes on a life of it's own. Even refuting the lie can make it seem more real. We don't seem to value honesty as a worthwhile virtue anymore, and that is very sad.
I try to keep up with what is happening in the world, particularly in our nation, but I get so bogged down and worried, I have to turn it all off and go outside and dig a hole or pull weeds to bring my blood presssure back down. I'm so thankful that I have a garden, to let myself forget the woes of the world for a while and think about blossom drop and compost. :tools
We just have a shortage of common sense and moderation in the people who make the rules. (and in the greedy few who try to take advantage of situations)
I truly wish politicians would quit aiming for the extreme edges and come to the middle. Even those folks who seem to have a good idea or two end up embracing much more extreme ideas, to please the very vocal few who make the most noise.
I also wish we could find out who is telling the truth. Outright lies seem to be rampant on both sides of the political spectrum. Once a lie is suggested, it is reported as truth, then takes on a life of it's own. Even refuting the lie can make it seem more real. We don't seem to value honesty as a worthwhile virtue anymore, and that is very sad.
I try to keep up with what is happening in the world, particularly in our nation, but I get so bogged down and worried, I have to turn it all off and go outside and dig a hole or pull weeds to bring my blood presssure back down. I'm so thankful that I have a garden, to let myself forget the woes of the world for a while and think about blossom drop and compost. :tools
digitS'
Garden Master
Besides that view by many outside the farming community and apprehension by farm families there is also the motivation of those who sensationalize the efforts being made. The last I heard, there had been a marked reduction in childhood injuries on the farm over the last 15 - 30 years. That's wonderful and it had, at least, something to do with organized effort to make farm life safer. But while that has been going on, we have to recognize the industrial nature of agricultural production in this country. If you can "get a contract," you just might make a living and be able to hold on to your occupation and keep the farm. Meanwhile, the industry calls most of the shots. When looking at power to change and power not to change, it helps to do as Deep Throat suggested to a couple of young investigators 40 years ago: "Follow the money."Ridgerunner said:
Sometime a picture is worth a thousand words and no, I won't be showing you a picture of my family on the day we gathered to celebrate the birthday of my brother's 2 year old on the same day she lost her mother. Instead, here are some snapshots of the stats on farm fatalities & injuries. The greatly, greatly higher rate for injuries speak for themselves. On the fatality chart, ask yourself which of these other occupations has such a high number of workers under 17.
Steve
