Self-sufficiency . . . have you thought about it?

miss_thenorth

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When we lived up north (near Timmins, ON), we owned an 80 acre parcel of land, on a huge river,(FrederickhouseRiver) which was 1/2 hour away form our home.

On it, there was an old work portable that was converted into a one bedroom (one bed and bunks for the kids)cottage. In that, we had a woodstove for heat, propane lights and stove. We used an old freezer for our fridge, (froze a rubbermaid tote full of water, and that would keep for a week in summer. We had no TV, no computer, no telephone. We had a cell phone, but had to go up the road for service--no reception on our property. We had to truck in our water--we used a 50 gallon drum and that also lasted us a week. We had a propane tank. that would last us a whole year. Our toilet was an outhouse. We had a generator, but rarely used it. (I had an old wringer washer, but it sprung an oil leak) I had an old wood burning cookstove that I cooked on during the summer. There was a bathroom, with a portapotty (for late at night), a tub but no running water. showers would consist of sitting on a stool in the bathtub, and taking cupfulls of water from a pot up warmed up water, to pour over ourselves.

We would stay there all summer, during the kids vacation, and every other weekend all throughout the year --summer and winter. (my dh had every other weekend off), and march break. We chopped our own firewood, carried water up from the river to boil for our showers, and dishwater. We used the trucked in water very sparingly for drinking, cooking etc.

Was it alot of work? yes!! Did we love it? Yes!!! We went into town once a week for groceries, water and ice.and laundry We didn't miss TV, computers, etc at all. My kids spent the summers catching frogs, fishing, swimming, cnoeing, going on nature walks, listening to nature and watching it. Rainy days were spent reading crafts, playing board games and baking. They were never bored. Winters we ice fished snowshoed, went tobogganing, built snow forts, etc.

Before we moved down here, we were looking into plans to build a permanent home there. We were looking into off the grid, since there was no hydro lines running to our property--It would have cost us the same amount of money to run in lines as it would be to buy wind turbines, and 'lead' batteries, so we were going to go with off grid. We would obviously had a few more amenities than the cottage, but we were planning a simpler lifestyle. I don't work--haven;t since the kids were born, and it has always been a dream of mine to live like that.--that would be my job. We planned on having a garden, and animals there too. My dh was unhappy at his job, but he figured if he had something he really loved to come home to he would tolerate it. We had plans for a modest three bedroom home, and were ready to start looking for contractors to do the parts of the building that he and I could not do ourselves.

All those plans came crashing down though, b/c he got a job offer down here that he really could not pass up. Mind you--he was not looking, but the company he now works for sought him out. Ultimately, he took the job and now we are where we are.

Now--we still might do something like that when he retires. But for now, I want to still provide for my family in a way that I feel is better for them, by growing what we will eat., and raising them to love and take care of our earth--instill in them strong family values, etc., etc.

Yes, even if we had have stayed up north, we would have been dependant on grocery stores, clothing stores ( I am NOT a sewer) and gas stations, but our footprint on this earth would have been alot lighter than it is now.

I do enjoy many modern conveniences in life. I have a nice home, with nice things in it, but we are not extravagant by any means.
We live within our means, shop at value village and other thrift shops, cook from scatch for all things--don't buy processed foods-etc. Do't spend alot of money on vacations, Christmas, etc.

Do I regret moving here? We have to make the most of what God gives us, and for some reason God wants us to be here. So no, I don't regret it.....but I do "miss_thenorth." So self-suffiency... I have thought about it. No one can be TRULY self sufficient, as was previously argued, but for several months out of they year for about 7 years, I was about as self sufficient as I could be. Now, I must make due with what I have here,and as I previously stated--my main concern is to provide wholesome food for my family. I do miss my "self sufficient" lifestyle that I had up north. I also miss the beautiful land, sunsets, northern lights, all that snow, going out into the bush for walks, paddling the canoe in the river, hunting, fishing, foraged for wild edibles, snowshoeing, Xcountry skiing, campfires, no humidity in the summers................
 

digitS'

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Wow, reminds me of my halcyon years as a young bachelor in the woods. However, you got me beat all hollow, Miss. I was lonely!

Except on weekends, I seldom had company. My girlfriend didn't quite give me the ultimatum, "Come back to town or we're thru!" But, "town" was 80 miles away and when I didn't move back . . . we were thru . . .

I had gardened before and knew enuf to put in a BIG garden on some cleared land. Each year, for the 4 years I was there, the garden got smaller as it became more productive.

There were critters, and in many ways, it was something of a continuation of the childhood farmlife I'd left behind only a few years prior. The tractor was my vehicle of choice thru the Winter and even carried me down to the nearest business, on the highway a little over a mile away.

I was pretty busy during the Summer working for the neighborhood farmers but still had time to load the boat in the pickup and go fishing. Always had good food to eat even if I got tired of the same-old, same-old and cooking for myself on a cast iron kitchen range.

Kind of hard looking back on it . . . couldn't quite do it again even tho' there's just DW & me. We're somewhat close to those activities now but that was an earlier Steve.
 

nightshade

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I am soo glade this subject came up. Even though my husband works in the geothermal heathing indestary for years the thought of being 100% independent has proven to be unrealistic. His heart just isn't in it as much as mine. I think alot f it is the upfront costs that is holding him back more then anything. But I would truly like to be more self sufficient then we are, closer to 50+% is my goal in reality. Instead of the 25% or so we are.

I grow as much as I can and save out of that as much as I can. I am planning to build a 10x10 root cellar this spring so I can keep even more.

We live in a trailer, something I hate and find embaressing some times. But the fact is I have grown okay with it cause staying in this tin can vs building the house we planned on has allowed us to do and have things that with a $500 + morgage we would not be able to. We live 5 miles away from town on 11 acers, with our closest neighbor being my Dh's grandfather's farm. Basicly we are surrounded by 200+ acers of farm and forest. We have horses, and goats and chickens as well as Dh's hunting dogs and so many other creatures the list goes on and on lol.

We do plan on either building a house or getting a modular with in the next two years. So I am trying to get as much done as I can, that I know I can not do afterward. Things like the root cellar, big barn other numerous projects.

We are planning on installing a geo unit for heat and ac when we get the new place. I am pushing for some type of solar either for power or for hot water. We hunt and fish freezing anything that we don't eat right away. This has cut down on how much meat we by at the store. We raise our chickens and ducks for eggs. But I am finding it hard to butcher things I have raised from babies. I can shoot bambi but I can't kill and eat one of my chickens or goats. :idunno what ya gonna do.

I am also very big on recyclingling and not buying things new that I don't have to. I raid one of two scrap wood dumpsters once a week instead of buying new boards. And other silly things like that.

Hopefully in 5 yrs will we be a more eco friendly and self-sufficient then we are now.
 

Txchikngardners

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digitS' said:
Brenda, you have an 80 foot container?
Steve
Yes, Steve - we love our container :love comes in handy for many purposes. Randy secured metal shelving along the back wall and one side wall. It's also perfect for storing long rolls of indoor/outdoor carpet (10' pieces) and the kids' old furniture pieces (which they need to pick up). We even drive the four-wheelers in before we close it up for the evening. Of course it gets super hot in the summer, but we open it and run fans in there on really hot days - don't want the humidity messing up the furniture.

For the hurricane, we stored lots of valuables in there - pictures, canned foods, clothes, TV's and more. Seems like we store more and more in there - The really big stuff that won't fit in the portable storage building.

Brenda
 

sunnychooks

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patandchickens said:
sunnychooks said:
The percentage of our parents income is irrelevent because we live in a different society with different expenses and different monetary needs.
I am curious as to what those are?
First of all, I don't think Pat is being argumentative. In fact, I'm loving this post! Reading about the experiences of the people on this forum reveals how amazing they are when being placed in situations that are less than ideal.

As I stated before, when I first responded to this post I was thinking along the lines of living my life in a more sustainable fashion. I don't think anyone has the ways or means to live in a bubble (even if anyone would want to).

I can only judge my expenses from my lifestyle, and from that I feel that my expenses are certainly different from those of my parents. DH and I are very much into simplicity when it comes to our chosen lifestyle, so we don't spend on anything extravagant. No TV, no vacations, no gifts for our special days (we pull names for family gifts at Christmas only because our family wants to!), small house, wood heat, clothesline... you get the idea. We still find ourselves stretched when it comes to basic expenses that our parents never had.

A few examples would be:
-We live in the highest tax area in the country. The percentage of our state, local and federal taxes are much higher than my parents paid, even with adjusting for inflation. Some of the taxes we need to pay today were not in existence in my parent's era.
-When my Dad retired he had a pension that had kept up with inflation and with his social security was able to retire comfortably. We cannot trust that social security will be there for us and looking at our projected future income we see that we will have to continue working long after retirement age if we do not save and invest a portion of our current income.
-My Dad worked within walking distance from our home. My DH has to commute close to an hour and 15 minutes. Even if the ridiculous price of gas is not considered, the commuting expenses were not a major factor in a family's income years ago.

As I said, I can only relate to my personal situation. Perhaps others don't have the necessary expenses I do, but these expenses are quite necessary.

I just want to add that the portion of the population that would waste money on unessential things would not be on a forum such as this. I consider myself in good company!!! ;)
 

nightshade

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I deffently agree that we have expences that our partents didn't have. Just take a tip to the grocery store, everything costs more and that's not an blown out of proportion. Even the basics are a whole lot more then they were a year ago and people's incomes are not growing as fast as inflation. Even if you don't buy tons of things that you truly don't need it's hard.

Food safty is a big reason for our gardening. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out there is something wrong here. The cost savings is a big bonus though. :p
 

sebrightlover

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patandchickens said:
The main difference I can see, and *maybe* this is what you are referring to?, is that people now expect that EVERYONE should be able to own a house (at the same time having Lotsa Stuff). This was not the case Way Back When. Now I'm not saying it's a bad idea for everyone to own a house - I think it is generally a good thing - but even nowadays, a house still has to fit in with the rest of the expenses, and for many many people it's not possible to do that AND keep up with what's become our societal assumptions about all the other things that 'need to' have money spent on them.
Sigh- If only the rent around here was cheaper than purchasing a house. My house payment is less than my rent was! And finding a landlord that will let you have pets.
 

patandchickens

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nightshade said:
Just take a tip to the grocery store, everything costs more and that's not an blown out of proportion. Even the basics are a whole lot more then they were a year ago and people's incomes are not growing as fast as inflation. Even if you don't buy tons of things that you truly don't need it's hard.
Sorry Nightshade, but the numbers show that we are actually living in one of the "cheapest food" societies EVER -- in the world today, and in the history of mankind. (Obviously, there are still people who are not spending lotsa money on funsies who genuinely do have trouble making ends meet -- but that is NOT because food is somehow abnormally or unreasonably expensive in stores).

Look...

In 2003, Americans spend (on average) between 7% of annual income on food (for the richest 20% of the population) to 39% of annual income (for the poorest 20% of the population).

Food spending, as % of annual income, has declined steadily since the first part of the 20th century -- in 1967 it was about 14% (averaged over the whole country), down to about 10% by the late 1990s. (see http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/aer780/aer780e.pdf for more detail)

Yes, absolute food prices have risen, but so have salaries -- I read somewhere that in the 1920s the price of a chicken (for the table, that is, not for the coop :)) amounted to about 2 hours of work at average wages -- by 2000, a chicken cost only about 15 minutes of work at average wages.

But be glad you do not live in much of the REST of the world. Percentage of income spent on food is much higher in less-industrialized or poorer nations. Here are some statistics on % income spent on food at home (note: the numbers are a little lower than those discussed above, because now we're excluding meals "eaten out", e.g. restaurants or street vendors):
U.S.A. 6%
U.K. 8%
Germany 10%
Japan 13%
France 14%
S. Africa 18%
Mexico 22%
China 28%
Russia 37%
India 39%
Indonesia 50%

The latter numbers probably do represent the more "correct" (i.e. reasonable) costs of good decent nonindustrialized food for people living in cities etc who aren't growing their own: in Victorian England, people in cities and towns who weren't growing their own were paying somewhere around 50%+ of their income for food. To make transported commercially grown food a lot cheaper than that requires major industrial-scale 'shortcuts' like the applications of lotsa pesticides and fertilizer, and developing varieties specialized to provide high yeilds (given pesticides and fertilizer) and good shippability, rather than good nutrition and taste.

It is easy to think 'oh, poor us!', but you know, if you compare 'us' to most everyone else (in both space and time), we are extremely damn lucky.

Well, in some ways.

Fortunately, the more of your food you grow yourself, the less the above applies to you :) For those of us in the temperate zone, this means fewer oranges and bananas and cashew nuts, and more lettuce and tomatoes and potatoes, but, such is life.


Pat
 

patandchickens

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sunnychooks said:
A few examples would be:
-We live in the highest tax area in the country. The percentage of our state, local and federal taxes are much higher than my parents paid, even with adjusting for inflation. Some of the taxes we need to pay today were not in existence in my parent's era.
-When my Dad retired he had a pension that had kept up with inflation and with his social security was able to retire comfortably. We cannot trust that social security will be there for us and looking at our projected future income we see that we will have to continue working long after retirement age if we do not save and invest a portion of our current income.
-My Dad worked within walking distance from our home. My DH has to commute close to an hour and 15 minutes. Even if the ridiculous price of gas is not considered, the commuting expenses were not a major factor in a family's income years ago.
Thank you sunnychooks!!! I appreciate the explanation! :)

I absolutely agree with you about taxes; good point.

The retirement thing is complex, isn't it, and I hadn't really thought about it in depth til you pointed this out. On the one hand, social security only benefited a few generations of Americans, so you need to also compare to all of the earlier generations, plus all the bijillions of people elsewhere in the world, who never had no such thing. But on the other hand, it is definitely true that people are living (on average) MUCH longer than they used to, at the same time as a smaller percentage are supported by their adult children, so in that sense I think, upon reflection, that I do agree with you that retirement savings are in fact a significantly greater expense for most North Americans today. (On the other hand, people also have vastly inflated ideas about the standard of living they 'require' in retirement, compared to yesteryear... it is a complicated subject isn't it).

The commuting thing though, sorry, I don't buy in the vast majority of cases. (Like, if you are working a blue collar or minimum wage job in Waikiki, then yes, you just CANNOT afford to live on that side of the island and DO have to commute most of an hour to work... but that does not describe most of us ;)). Where to work and where to live is generally a pretty broad choice, and them as don't want to commute 1.5 hours do not HAVE to stay with that house or that job (and my husband commutes 50 minutes at 5:30 a.m., which would be about 1.5 hrs in rush hour -- we actually made a *profit*, on saved gas, the times he's been on parental leave with reduced salary! :eek:). Mainly it's just that we want the job we want, and we want the house/community that we want, and the two do not always coincide gracefully. It's almost always a choice <shrug>

Thank you for making me think more! Really truly :D

Pat, who still thinks 'we' (meaning the vast majority of North Americans) are far better off than practically any other human beings at any time in the species' history, except for totally self-inflicted things like lousy grocery store food and environmental toxins, and should suck it up and quit whining so much ;)
 

miss_thenorth

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Okay, maybe I just got a little defensive when Pat said she had a problems with self-sufficiency. I am extremely aware that no one person can be totally independent/self sufficient. I was looking at the lifestyle--not the actual definition of the word.

And since we have moved here, I know that it is not possible for us to live "self-sufficiently" I am trying to do the best I can. After we came from up north, we lived in the city for four years, b/c a house with land was completely unobtainable near Windsor. I put up with it for two years before the itch got too strong to ignore. I needed to get out of the city!! It took us two years to find this place. We are where we are--one hour away from my dh's job, b/c this is where housing is more affordable. My dh loves his job, doesn't mind the commute, and rides his Bergman motorcycle for 9 mos of the year. Dec,Jan, and Feb are killers for gasoline costs. I hate that, but yes that is a choice we made. Live in town and be miserable or move to an affordable country home and commute. Well, you know what we chose.


i wish we could be more self sufficient than what we are right now, but to do that would cost money that we don't have to spend. I do what I can. . Food is cheaper, but not healthier. i think people look to find cheaper food b/c cost of living is too high--ie mtges and taxes. The things we can do to be frugal, we do--reduce heating, and hydro usage, and yes--groceries.

Yes, I agree there are alot of good points discussed here on this post. It has been enlightening to read.
And I do agree that most of us here practice a degree of sustainability or we would not be here on this forum..

Maybe the direction of this thread can go toward frugality............
 

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