What if I Crossed Heirlooms?

[digitS']

Without really trying to go in any particular direction, what if I just did some crosses of very similar heirloom tomatoes?

The situation: My dear grandmother gave tomato seeds to her youngest child. She may have been over 90 at the time and he is now approaching that age. Anyway, he gave me the seeds about 20 years ago.

Uncle Marv's story was that she had them since the Depression years. After a few years of growing them, along with the usual hybrids that I grew, the interest in heirloom tomatoes was born . First tho', I wanted to get some idea of what grandmother's tomatoes were. She called them "the peddler's tomatoes" so, she bought the seed - or the fruit. I came across information about Porters and decided to grow that heirloom variety in my garden. Porters was a seed company in Texas, long ago, and my grandmother lived in New Mexico. Anyway, the fruit is virtually the same but the plants look different.

Here's my idea, keep grandmother's strain going but make a cross with Porters. Grandmother was Pearl Jane. Now, I've got "Pearl's Porters" .

Here's the next situation: A friend sent seeds for Kellogg's Breakfast tomatoes last year. I grew 2 plants. One produced very early, had a wonderful flavor and just did really well! The 2nd plant had very late fruit. The 1st plant had red fruit - NOT the "required" orange. This year, I purchased seed from Jung's and the KB plants behaved exactly like the 2nd plant in the 2011 garden. Okay, what was the 1st plant in 2011?? A cross? Something from a seed that shouldn't have been in that packet? What if I crossed it with beefsteak Orange Minsk? Orange Minsk is early and meets that need. It is delicious - splits a little and the big plant isn't very productive. I wouldn't really care if the resultant hybrid is red or orange, mostly if it had a good flavor, produced well and ripened early !

Here's situation #3: Kimberley really liked my garden and the fruit was twice the size reported in the catalogs. It may be that the variety likes it here because it's similar to Kimberley, British Columbia. However . . . . there was quite a core in that early little tomato. I really like Woodle's Orange and have grown it the last 2 years. It sure isn't very orange AND it is half the size as described. These varieties are fairly similar in my garden. What if I just crossed them? I'd be willing to continue the line and try to stabilize it so that I'd have a nice little early tomato that could do well here .

I'd like your thoughts. Might the F1 generations be some kind of weird mess? I'm ready to do the hybridizing . . . I guess. It seems intimidating. I mean, I wear extra-large gloves on these digitS'! I can take the gloves off but am I really capable of doing this work?

Steve

 

[thistlebloom]

So, Steve, are you going to do this next year? I have no real thoughts that would be helpful since I've never attempted any purposeful
plant breeding. But it sounds like a really interesting project.

I love the fact that your grandma Pearls tomatoes have been handed down through the generations. That's such a wonderful story.

Oh, and I think you are infinitely capable of doing this!

 

[Jared77]

Go for it! I like that your keeping your Grandmother's strain going, that's something truly special.

The rest Id start crossing and growing as many of the next generation of seeds as you can. Cull ruthlessly, keep your standards very high and I bet you'll stabilize them and have what you want in no time. Keep us posted! Where's Marshall when we need him? This is right in his wheelhouse.

One thing Id recommend though is listing the requirements for your tomato. Size of fruit, days to maturity, flavor, production etc. Then rank them from most important to least important. That way you have a template to work from and each tomato has to measure up against. Think of it as the SATs for your tomatoes. Then compare each tomato against that list and the more it requirements it meets you save seeds from it and go from there. I suggest this because sometimes people get hung up on certain things and sacrifice others and they struggle to get them back.

Please keep us posted this is fun stuff!!!

 

[digitS']

I have had a month to think about this idea. The most important part of it is to keep the requirements for the offspring very, very few. I can't be looking to come up with something really different. There are more cultural, or sentimental reasons to do these crosses that occur to me. In reverse order:

#3 What kind of a numbskull would I be to not capitalize on how well Kimberley does in my garden? I really do believe that different varieties perform differently, one environment to another. Think for a moment how greatly different most anywhere you have spent a little time, has been from where you have your home garden! The soil and weather is vastly different between, say Fort Myers, Florida and the Purcell Mountains of British Columbia.

#2 I really appreciate the guy who gave me the seeds for the plant in the #2 situation. He did that unbidden and just out of kindness and his own interest. It worked! The problem is, it didn't work as either of us expected and we are left with an unknown. Just what is this successful tomato plant? Would I be a numbskull for not taking advantage of it? Of course. To placate my own "need to know" and even to take advantage of a very nice Orange Minsk which just doesn't fit quite well enough for my purposes - cross the 2 varieties and my fingers. If I get highly variable plants, it was a mistake. I can't devote 100's of square feet to many dozens of plants over many generations. If that is what it will take, maybe I can try Kimberley crossed with the friend's unknown variety in 2014. The unknown variety doesn't have much of a core - the drawback for Kimberley.

#1 I would love to be able to say, "Here is my grandmother's tomato. It isn't Porters . . ." I couldn't tell the difference in the fruit when I grew them side by side! In my imagination, the plants themselves looked at each other and said, "Hey, wait a minute! Don't I remember you from the 1930's? Where the heck you been?" I don't have to grow Porters but I'd better not lose grandma's! I'd have to keep grandma's if it is a parent of a Pearl's Porters hybrid. I suspect that plant breeders make changes in their strains all the time. Porters seems to be less available than one called "Porter's Pride" these days. Well, 2 can play at that game! . . . if'n I can get my digitS around the process . . .

Steve

 

[Jared77]

I'm just playing the counter points here with you......

1) Just so I understand it your goal with crossing Kimberly is to reduce the size of the core? How different is the Unknown from the Kimberly? Are they both similar except that the Unknown has less core?

2) As far as the Orange Minsk goes, are you after an orange tomato? Does it do well for you? Does it have a flavor you really like? Just wondering where it fits in. The problem with crossing the Kimberly and Orange Minsk is you could very easily produce a fairly wide variety of tomatoes and unless you have a large sample size to pull from it may take a LONG time to get what you want.

3) How many seeds do you have of the unknown tomato?

I don't know how much space you have that your willing to dedicate to this process but given the new information here's what I do for 2013 provided that the unknown is . Id grow Kimberly again and cross it with the unknown strain. Id also be sure I produced some pure unknown strain tomatoes too, That way you keep the unknown strain pure and have it for the 2014 garden.

Then Id compare all 3. Kimberly, the unknown, and the F1 Kimberly x Unknown fruit and see which ones you like best. Then Id go from there. If the pure unknowns are better then Id keep those going and ditch Kimberly. If the crosses are better then I'd work with those and only plant seeds from the crosses that are closest to what you want.

I would be sure to make some small garden labels and identify each plant which got pollinated with what and keep them apart when harvesting and comparing since you'll have 3 different tomatoes to work against.

When you pair up the unknowns you will be doubling up on the traits from both parents. So you could get some variety there even amongst the F1 unknowns. Just food for thought.

Even if you've identified the strain that your Grandmother had Id still keep it going. Something special about that connection from generations back that. That's just me though.

 

[digitS']

Thanks Jared! (And, Thistle'!)

The "unknown" tomato was in a packet of seed that said "Kellogg's Breakfast" but it is not orange and is much earlier than KB! No, it has no core and I saved over 30 seeds from one of the fruits.

Kimberley is a red tomato that is supposed to be only 2 ounces. Nearly all grew to 5 ounces and not one was as small as 2 ounces. It is a very early tomato. The plants are small. The fruit has a good flavor but quite a core. My Woodle's Orange wasn't orange and much smaller than it is supposed to be but with a nice flavor and no core. I really like them!

Orange Minsk is orange and delicious but comes off a frustratingly large and unproductive plant. Despite the size of the plant & fruit, it is early. It might be wise to exclude it from the trails because it is quite different from the others.

No, I'd be an officially designated numbskull if the family found out that I lost Grandma's tomato. I like the idea of sharing it with others but if it is a Porter, it is a Porter. The plant size & color is what I noticed was different when I grew both. I'm not sure if I can claim that these amount to desirable attributes. Maybe I should just keep it going for another generation and the Porter will disappear into the mists of time. After another 50 years, Pearl's tomato can claim center stage where she rightfully belongs .

Steve

 

[digitS']

Oh, NO!

My December National Geographic tells me of a completed sequencing of the tomato genome. The tomato has about 7,000 more genes than a human!

Well, I'm not getting into it at the microscopic level!

Steve

 

[897tgigvib]

Don't worry about the total number of genes. It's the active genotypes that make phenotype characters visible to be concerned with, and for the amateur plant breeder, that's only a hundred or so genes to worry about. Most of the rest are common in all the varieties that have stood the test of time. You don't need to worry about a shrunken root gene. Neither parent will have those kinds of defects.

Just ensure you select for breeding, good healthy, productive plants, true to their type.
(I actually think your number one Kellog's breakfast is more true to the old type.)

Big fat digits will make it difficult, but not impossible.

Some things to consider:
Fitting that anther cone onto the female flower: You need to size them right.
Removing the anther cone from a very small unfertilized female flower can be tricky.
Some varieties have very tender and tiny pistil under the stigma, and may easily break.
If that happens too much, and ya can't get it right, switch the female variety to the other one.

RECOGNITION OF THE F1 SEEDLING THE NEXT YEAR:

Cross pollinating manually it is difficult to ensure 100% of the seeds in the tomato are your cross. Some may have gotten self pollinated doing the SURGERY.

So, you have to be able to recognize the crossed seedlings.
There are indeed ways!

Potato leaf on a tomato is RECESSIVE. A self pollinated potato leaf variety will make potato leaf offspring.
But,
A potato leaf variety, when crossed with a regular leaf variety,
will produce REGULAR LEAF OFFSPRING when you plant the crossed, F1 seeds.
That is the simplest recognizer for tomatoes.

The color shade of the leaves is another recognizing factor.

 

[digitS']

Thanks, Marshall!

. . . Just ensure you select for breeding, good healthy, productive plants, true to their type. . .

One reason for me to try this is: I'm not sure if anything is true to type!

. . . (I actually think your number one Kellog's breakfast is more true to the old type.) . . .

What?! You mean I may have been fretting about something that really isn't one-off??!!

Steve

 

[Jared77]

The "unknown" tomato was in a packet of seed that said "Kellogg's Breakfast" but it is not orange and is much earlier than KB! No, it has no core and I saved over 30 seeds from one of the fruits.

Ah ok good to know. Id plant them and see what you get. Maybe it was hybrid vigor, maybe its a hybrid strain that thrives in your area. However Id keep it going, see what you get and if it keeps producing well Id run with it. If nothing else if your happy with it who cares?

Kimberley is a red tomato that is supposed to be only 2 ounces. Nearly all grew to 5 ounces and not one was as small as 2 ounces. It is a very early tomato. The plants are small. The fruit has a good flavor but quite a core.

Hearing that it just confirms what I outlined above. I bet you could get a happy medium with the limited core of the unknown and the nice 5oz early tomato that the Kimberly is producing. Just save the seeds from any tomato that has everything you want. Few generations of selection like that and you'll get it.

My Woodle's Orange wasn't orange and much smaller than it is supposed to be but with a nice flavor and no core. I really like them!

I subscribe to what the late Vincent Price said who was an avid and well known art collector. He said "Keep what you love since your the one who has to look at it". He was alluding to how he selected pieces for his personal collection. He was known for passing on pieces that had much higher value but he didn't like them so he passed. Logic I've always tried to live by.

Orange Minsk is orange and delicious but comes off a frustratingly large and unproductive plant. Despite the size of the plant & fruit, it is early. It might be wise to exclude it from the trails because it is quite different from the others.

I would. If it did that in my garden it would be the last time I grew it. I'm pretty harsh about what I keep as far as strains go. If I'm less than thrilled with it for any reason Ill find something else. Too many other varieties out there to try. I wouldn't hold onto one that I find frustrating for any reason. But again that's just me.

No, I'd be an officially designated numbskull if the family found out that I lost Grandma's tomato. I like the idea of sharing it with others but if it is a Porter, it is a Porter. The plant size & color is what I noticed was different when I grew both. I'm not sure if I can claim that these amount to desirable attributes. Maybe I should just keep it going for another generation and the Porter will disappear into the mists of time. After another 50 years, Pearl's tomato can claim center stage where she rightfully belongs .

AMEN!!!!