Echinacea seeds

[Southern Gardener]

I've been looking for two specific varities of echinacea seeds: Milkshake and Tiki torch - all websites that I go to only sell the plants anywhere from $10 - $12.95 for a little plug. I'm wondering why I can't find these seeds - would if be because they may be new varities? Here is a pic of the Milkshake - I love it and I want it! Anybody know where I can find these seeds?

 

[thistlebloom]

I doubt you'll be able to find seeds for quite some time Joan. Those are new varieties. Every year they come out with amazing new varieties of echinacea, and I have to admit to laying out the pile of money for a few spectacular ones.

I wondered if they would reseed true, so left them standing this fall, instead of the usual fall cutdown. After thinking about it I realized that I wouldn't know if they reseeded because of all the different varieties I have that have the opportunity to mix.

Actually $10 doesn't sound too bad. I've seen them for over $20. Of course that's for a 1 gallon pot, and I just reread your post and ten bucks is for a plug. Yeah, that's spendy.

Check a good nursery this spring and see what they have available. When grown in a 1 gallon container you'll get more than a single stem.

 

[catjac1975]

I have found the fancy echinacea plants are not very hardy in my zone 6. Those of mine that have reseeded have reverted to the old purple color. I would guess that the hybrids do not stay true to form which would account for the price.

 

[Southern Gardener]

Thanks thistle - that's what I thought. I think I'll ask my boss to check into buying these for our greenhouses - he can get a better discount than I can.

 

[thistlebloom]

I have found the fancy echinacea plants are not very hardy in my zone 6. Those of mine that have reseeded have reverted to the old purple color. I would guess that the hybrids do not stay true to form which would account for the price.

I agree Cat. I do have a couple that wintered well, I can't remember their names, Sunset something, and another red one.

 

[897tgigvib]

Southern, you should be in a good zone for any Echinacea!

Ya know, a couple things here. Supposedly they revert back to their purplish color. ok. That is presuming self pollination, which is what would happen if you got to of them of the same variety. They'd be clones, vegetatively propagated one way or another.

Another thing I know about Echinacea is the Bumblebees love them. They even sleep on them at night.

Well, what if you invested in several of the new color variations. I have heard these new variations happened because success finally happened crossing yellow E. paradoxica with the cultivated strains.

What I do not know is if these new colors are polyploid, tetraploid, or diploid. Easy version is, I don't know if they are partially sterile of not.

Since someone said they reverted, that means they did make viable seed.

Presuming they make viable seed, and that they tend to lose paradoxica's color, you might want to have a paradoxica to donate the pollen.

That will increase the likelihood of the pale color showing. If...if it will backcross to paradoxica.

And, if that happens, you will get a new assorted mix of shades, entirely unselected by any fancy panels of judges. Only by yourself. So if you get some color that actually looks like brownish yellow, a color some company might feel would not sell very well, and you like the color, then you have the rare color, unfindable anywhere else.

You can enjoy crossing different variations every year. You can obtain some of the other colors such as that zinnia orange colored one whatever name they gave it, and cross some of those into the mix. Cross your paradoxica with a reverted offspring. Heck, some of the reverted ones will have unusual or rare flower forms or shades, and the pros will come up with new colors and plant forms to cross in. A wonderful hobby!

 

[Southern Gardener]

that is a great idea marshall! I'll get right on that as soon as I finish the gajillion other projects and hobbies I have! That is a shame they may not reseed true because they are so beautiful!

 

[897tgigvib]

Oh Southern, don't look at it as a shame they don't breed true, look at it as an opportunity to make new beautiful shades and flower and plant forms!

Besides, well grown Echinacea divides well into 4 or 6 new plants every 2 years, at least in Montana the standard Coneflower forms did.

To divide them, grow them well for 2 seasons. After they die back, at least mostly dieback for you down there where y'all yes mayaams live, sometime in January, dig it up when the soil is moist, and have an old pruning saw handy. A well serrated old knife will do. Dig it up by most all the roots, and have a handy dandy cardboard to set yourself on. cut back most of the plant down to a few inches. Some of what you cut off you can try to do cuttings of, but it's not the right time of year for the best, but who knows, you may get some to grow, a nice bonus. Set your future cuttings aside to work on later in moistened newspaper. Take your old pruning saw and cut the rootball in half at a likely looking place that will definitely make 2 good plants. Set one down, and cut the other one in half again at a likely looking place. You're looking to make sure you have good future buds and good root. Do the same with the other big half. You might see another section or two you can cut off. Even little parts will make good little plants that might take a little longer to establish.

Now go ahead and plant your divided plants! Give them a bit of extra care their first season. In another 2 years you'll be able to do this dividing with all of them! That'll mean, buy one now, and if you average 5 in 2 years, you'll average 5 again from each of those 5 in 2 more, a total of 4 years, giving you 25 plants in 4 years. HOW COOL IS THAT???

And, that's not even counting any cuttings that take!

AND! Another version of this is to make like 10 or 12 divisions instead of 5. They make smaller plants to start, and some might not make it, but your increase is even faster. One 10 dollar plant can make you, oh shoot, you do the math in 4 years.
If you've never done PROPAGATION BY DIVIDING and are worried, a very normal thing, buy 2 of them and only divide one of them in a couple years, or practice up on some even simpler plant such a Huechera. The very simplest divider, well, one of the simplest, are hen and chickens. Those you can have a supervised 3 year old do, or an unsupervised 4 year old. well, unless his nickname is DESTRUCTO. What I'm getting at is, just do it if you never have. Use your gardener instincts and it will work.

I sure wish I had the space and resources to go into the nursery business myself. How many other products can increase themselves like that with only a little very enjoyable work???

 

[Jared77]

Another thought to add to the mix is maybe the "purple" seeds were the only ones strong enough to actually germinate. With new strains viability is often an issue so while genetically you may have gotten a whole range of colors, that variety was the only one strong enough to grow under the conditions.

However it might be worth saving seeds from rather than relying on reseeding and starting them under better/more stable/ideal conditions maybe you could coax them into germinating and actually producing something for you. Then you can select for color and heartiness. That may also be part of the cost that your seeing. If viability is poor, it could be a simple matter of economics and F1s are what's grown and shipped vs trying to work with a weaker F2 strain which would raise the costs even higher.

Again I have no idea just floating a thought out there after reading the thread

 

[897tgigvib]

Wellp, Jared's reply inspired me to do a google search to see if partial seed viability, or as scientists would call it, DIFFERENTIAL VIABILITY OF INTRAGENERIC SPECIES WIDE CROSSES might be the case. (Oh those 15 syllable scientific articles! I love them! Van hardly make them out, but I love them.) So far, early in my search, I have come across this site which I thought was going to have more technical answers in it. It does not, but it still has good info.

http://www.plantdelights.com/Echinacea-Coneflowers-for-the-Garden/products/508/

I'll keep looking for the technical stuff, well, unless I have a real hard time.