Wall to wall Canadian Thistle - help!

Dirtdoctor

Leafing Out
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
Points
22
Thistles, lovely to look at when they flower but they are nasty. Stressing them out is a means of winning the battle, constant mowing will work, tilling and treatment of the new growth with herbicide, ROUND-UP combined with stressing will work, but you have to be presistant SMALL LOW DOSES will allow the round up to travel deeply, (FOLLOW ALL instructions when applying that stuff.....)
too heavy a dose will get you a top kill, and then the photosynthsis process will be stopped, Photosynthisis is what carries the killing ingredient to the deepest roots. Little bit goes along way.......we use to ad fertilizer with our roundup applications, to stimulate the growth of the plant to absorb it deeply to the roots. FOLLOW ALL THE RULES OF APPLICATION.

SLow and steady will accomplish.

another thing about weeds. Plants produce a gas, its called an AUXIN, this gas is emitted thru the root hairs, it is "Toxic" to other types of plants and will assist in the growing of its own type. and help reduce and conqure the Competing plants, (thats the rule in the plant world) So when you rip, (never till) soil you will assist in the release of those auxins, acting as another tool in teh fight. BUT when you rip the soil you could be bringing old weed seeds to the surface area where they will sprout and grow
So when you make the determination to eradicate a pest, you must keep in it for the long haul.

We have used this method for eradication of STAR THISTLE.......successfully. but it takes constant vigliance. IF you cant bare to use a ROUNDUP type product you can find a scientific warehouse and get acetic acid, (highly constintrated VINEGAR. paint it on a leaf and watch it degrade and kill the plant...

Oh TILLING, cant leave ya hanging, rototillers have a way of compacting the lower levels of soil, that tine as it turns, acts like a little hammer when it hits the bottom of the soil, the little spike on the back of the rototiller is suppoesed to break thru that hardened soil but it is really ineffective, some soils dont compact, SANDY SOILS for example but most soils will compact , i recommend ripping the soil or double digging the beds. GOOGLE.COM for instructions to double digging, ONCE you fortify and amend you soil, the rest of your gardening life will be a dream, no compacted soils to deal with, weeds( if you get them) can be pulled out with the littlest of effort. the Plant Auxins will be released with the carbon exchange. its really a wonderful thing, truely a enjoyable gardening experience.

best to you and your garden,
Jack
Dirtdoctorjak@aol.com
Soils To Grow llc
 

patandchickens

Deeply Rooted
Joined
Nov 24, 2007
Messages
2,537
Reaction score
1
Points
153
Location
Ontario, Canada
Dirtdoctor said:
Plants produce a gas, its called an AUXIN, this gas is emitted thru the root hairs, it is "Toxic" to other types of plants and will assist in the growing of its own type. and help reduce and conqure the Competing plants,
I was under the impression that auxins, which are generally growth hormones *within* a plant's tissues, are generally in liquid form (well, dissolved) and remain within the plant. (They're the hormones responsible for things like deciding which buds/shoots of the plant grow how long and how fast, and so forth).

Allelochemicals, which is the umbrella term for any compound that a plant emits into the environment to suppress neighboring plants' growth, are not generally known to be gases AFAIK? (There was originally some question as to whether desert shrubs might use gaseous terpenes as allelochemicals but my impression is that's been largely discredited now?). I have never heard that tilling or spading removes allelochemicals, other than obviously removing (or anyhow discouraging) the roots that are producing 'em.

Mind, I am not a botanist nor do I play one on tv, and if I am wrong please correct me.

FWIW, a suitable strength of acetic acid can be bought (although possibly in a quantity larger than the homeowner would wish) from any decent feed or farm store. Actually nowadays you can buy it in leetle small homeowner-size bottles, too... there are at least 2 brands, they have something like 'eco' in their name IIRC.

P.S. I think the merits of double-digging depend HIGHLY on the exact nature of your soil, and are generally much less than advertised. Just because upper class Brits a century ago liked to make their hired help do it, does not *guarantee* it's real useful :)

Cheers,

Pat
 

ShellieESterling

Garden Ornament
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
117
Reaction score
0
Points
79
Location
Northeastern PA
Wow... well, I don't have any information to provide you with, but I'm glad your garden beds for the most part have been recovered! Congratulations :D
 

Tutter

Deeply Rooted
Joined
May 12, 2008
Messages
865
Reaction score
0
Points
104
Location
N. California
Dirtdoctor said:
We have used this method for eradication of STAR THISTLE.......successfully. but it takes constant vigliance.
How long did it take you to eradicate the star thistle?

As for the tilling/tillers, you can greatly reduce any downside by keeping your tines sharp. Dull blades are one of the biggest problems with compacting. Well, that and walking on the bed, of course. Also, getting a good, rear tine tiller is important.
 

Dirtdoctor

Leafing Out
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
Points
22
Pat and Tutter,

I will pull some more information to assist in the discussion regarding the Co2 transpriration and the work of the auxins (below soil level).
Tutter, Marysville Calfironia we worked to eradicate star thistles and after two growing seasons we were successful. Also in the
Monterey Peninsula and the Salad Bowl of the world, Salinas, where i do most of my work.
Much star thistle imported thru cattle and hay operstions. IT is to be stressed at every venue.

As for double digging, with the rental yards around and the smaller designed little mini backhoes, double digging is effective for even the poorest of us homeowners... getting the soil up to 6% organic matter enables us to grow and enjoy the fruits of our labors. After all, how many times in our lifes do we want to have to redig the garden? I do it once then just suppliment with manure teas, and various composts. I hate digging. (cept i use tractors and they are sortof fun)

On a larger scale, rototilling even with sharp tines is a must, but how often does the average tiller get sharpened? plus the new designs in tines with the twist in them assists in self sharpening. BUT they will still compact the soil, just the curving motion of the tines will compact soil, Soils To Grow LLC. has done side by side tests, and its true in every one that the tillers from the homeowner units up to the larger Ag units still compact the soil, so SUB SOIL shankin must be done and is done on commerical farm operations, to break up that compacted layer. mtf.



best to you,
Jack
 

patandchickens

Deeply Rooted
Joined
Nov 24, 2007
Messages
2,537
Reaction score
1
Points
153
Location
Ontario, Canada
Dirtdoctor said:
As for double digging, with the rental yards around and the smaller designed little mini backhoes, double digging is effective for even the poorest of us homeowners... getting the soil up to 6% organic matter enables us to grow and enjoy the fruits of our labors.
That has nothing to do with Ddouble-digging, though, per se.

Absolutely it is worth amending the soil! But most of the benefit is in the top 10" or so (one shovel depth). Going below that in many areas means you're getting into pure-clay subsoil. There is a limit to how much good it does to put organic matter into *that* (it does some good of course, but IMO not *very* much) and certainly you don't want to inadvertantly get the subsoil mixed into the TOP layer of soil. Also, double-digging into clay subsoil can create a 'bathtub' that can hold water problematically in the wetter parts of the year. Ask me how I know.

There are enough professional horticulturists out there who swear they see no difference between double- and single-dug beds (that are both equally well amended and cared for), which matches my own more limited experience, that I think it is fair to suggest it may not be all that it's generally cracked up to be.

Also if you're doing it with a mini backhoe, as I gather you're advocating, you would probably have to worry about soil compaction on the places where the backhoe is driven (like, if the garden bed is across your lawn...)

JMO,

Pat
 

chickenannie

Leafing Out
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
15
Reaction score
0
Points
22
Dirtdoctor said:
Thistles, lovely to look at when they flower but they are nasty. Stressing them out is a means of winning the battle, constant mowing will work, tilling and treatment of the new growth with herbicide, ROUND-UP combined with stressing will work, but you have to be presistant SMALL LOW DOSES will allow the round up to travel deeply, (FOLLOW ALL instructions when applying that stuff.....)
too heavy a dose will get you a top kill, and then the photosynthsis process will be stopped, Photosynthisis is what carries the killing ingredient to the deepest roots. Little bit goes along way.......we use to ad fertilizer with our roundup applications, to stimulate the growth of the plant to absorb it deeply to the roots. FOLLOW ALL THE RULES OF APPLICATION.
No personal offense DirtDoctor, but I must add that I am an Organic gardener, I work with Organic farming and i would NEVER use Round Up or other herbicides on my food, especially when the veggies I grow in this garden feed me and my family, and I have free-range chickens and turkeys that run around here in the garden that I eat eggs and meat from. Sorry to rant about this but I'm tired of hearing "just put a LITTLE bit of herbicide on!" Relying on chemicals to solve problems that CAN be handled other ways is an unsustainable way to take care of land and has farther-reaching effects than what you or I can possibly imagine. If every single household has the mindset that "oh I'll just use a little bit" that sure does add up to a LOT. Chemicals are NOT going to solve our agricultural problems. In fact using chemicals has added new long-term problems to farming that didn't even exist in the past. Just look at our pollinators for one example. Let's think about more than just ourselves and take care of our gardens in a way that keeps the soil healthy for many many generations to come!
 

OaklandCityFarmer

Deeply Rooted
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
949
Reaction score
14
Points
142
Location
Zone 8B, Oakland, CA
chickenannie said:
Why does it even say "TEG is Green & Eco Friendly" on this site if people are going to be advocating herbicides?
The announcement that you see above is about a the host server and the carbon imprint. You should click on the post and read it.

That being said, TEG cannot be responsible for the opinions of others on the forum. Many people use non organic methods and are at their own discretion when using these methods. Personally I never use them but I know many who do and swear they could not grow a thing without them.

Many people on here have a wide variety of opinions and knowledge. This fact sometimes creates differing of opinions, this is normal in any forum or other medium.

A quote from the Easy Garden Rules The opinions expressed on the forum are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the positions of the TEG website and/or its staff.

Happy Gardening!
 

Dirtdoctor

Leafing Out
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
Points
22
OH too funny,

Humble opinions, are just that. Respectfully submitted, I am a ORGANic farmer..... I dislike the use of chemicals, BUT in my business life, i have clients that DONT give a ripe. So when they request certian weeds removed, some evasive weeds are mandated to be removed, Economy of scale doesnt allow for organic methods of removal, Its just not cost effective for a guy to hand weed 100 acres. that adage "That a little bit is good so a whole lot must be better" is a popular belief in alot of circles. We always try to advise folks to utilize the proper tool in the proper ratios.

As for soil compaction with double digging, Pat yer comments are totally correct, DEPENDING ON SUBSOILS, when ever you Adjust any soils, there are many consequenses that must be brought into view. Drainage, compaction is a big one, (tracked excavators have only a 2.5 foot pounds per square inch of compaction) a womans high heal is much greater than that.

But in many gardens depending on the amendment being added to the soil, digging into the subsoil, etc.... there is a argument for everything, BUT, if your planting in shallow soil, and your trying to grow large trees, you have to dig deep, so adjusting the subsoil to support proper drainage, fertility, and root structure is important. ALL these things must be taken into account.

Going Green is good, but we all have to be realistic about it. electric cars? unless you supply your Own Solar electricity the idea of saving the world with an electric car is a pantload!! Where does that electricty Come from? natural gas, Coal fired generators? somewhere energy is expended to produce the electricty powering your electric car. ONLY solar or wind power generation will make it a truely GREEN idea. (dont ask what happends to the battery bank when they go bad).

MY house is totally solar, windmill pumps my water, when we had a large fleet of trucks and heavy equipment we ran biodiesel,(to a great expense in repairs) our facility sequestered 200,000+ tons of recyclable organics every year.
(not glass or cans etc. only green yardwaste, used animal food, food waste etc)

So as for greening, our offices are operating on SOLAR power, but my paper is wonderful first generation paper, After all trees are a renewable resourse.

Best of ORGANIC gardening to you all.
make sure you check the "TREATMENTS FOR PESTS" check them against OMRI and the other organizations that moniter organic standards. LOTS of the standards have been relaxed here in USA, so read carefully if your a purest.

Dig in and have fun
Jack
 

tomatokate

Chillin' In The Garden
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
29
Reaction score
0
Points
27
Canadian thistle sucks!!! I had a huge patch next to my garden last year, and ALL the seeds blew into my patch, of course! Just put up a fence, and pull up the ones that cross the line.:)
 

Latest posts

Top