Can you be arrested for saving seeds?

[seedcorn]

I'm just the gnarly sort. Comes from going to Cook Junior high, and having my own personal bully. Learned that it is most certainly better to get a bloody lip and head pounded into the concrete while knowing I said the right thing than being a safe suck up.

Anyone want to tell me to accidentally purchase their products or else all product prices will go up, wellp, go ahead, bloody my mouth. Do it good! Observe how the good guy loses. Learn. Go ahead. Raise those prices! All you want!

See? We are not yet extinct. Once all the good guys are extinct, then the rest that are left, wellp, go ahead and do all you want to each other, preferably on another planet. Leave my dust alone on this planet that I love.

Yea, I am glad for seedcorn's input, for sure. Just, how come seedcorn has not been more convinced yet? See? It does no good to try, here, nor anywhere.

Remember I'm obtuse-my definition-so what am I suppose to be convinced of? I enjoy a good discussion, guess the topic has changed? EU wants to control what is sold as seed. Don't see that as a bad thing, sorry.

Good guys don't steal from other people. Good guys don't make up things or twist everything to make something evil. Good guys do try to help others, see good and do it. Why I like Ag people as they are in general, great people and not the satans people portray them as. Now I've worked with a few that could shake hands with satan.......

 

[hoodat]

Comparative figures are often skewed; for instance asking how much corn a small farmer can raise compared to a large farm but corn is too low an income crop unless it is subsidized by the government and the subzidization programs are usually not available to small farmers.
So far large farms have been most succesful at growing corn and soybeans but humans can't stay healthy on that diet alone. Large farms are almost 100% monocropped and monocropping depletes the soil. That has been so well documented that no one even argues the point any more.
Large farming is also wasteful of land and resources. In order to get their machinery into the fields the corn rows must be spaced farther apart than they used to be. The bare soil between the rows is an open invitation for weeds which must then be sprayed with herbicide where a small farm tills the soil to kill weeds. A small farmer can plant a second crop between the corn rows that is either non competitive with the corn or harvested before the corn is ready. Two or more crops are being grown on the same land at the same time A large farm cannot do that because it takes hand labor to plant and harvest so intercropping cannot be done because it interferes with the operation of the machinery. That might include mustard greens, beets, carrots, bush beans or quite a few others. Every bit of the soil is productive but you never see total food produced compared, only corn and soybeans.

 

[bj taylor]

I've watched the food issues develop for a few years. before that, I was happily oblivious.

the past few presidents (not sure how far back) have given themselves via executive order absolute control over livestock, farming equipment, crops 'if the need arises'. those "rights" have been significantly expanded in this last executive order.

huge corporations have patented "life" in seeds & have taken to court many farmers. some of these farmers willingly got into bed with these guys for cost and expediency sake, while others fought the big corporations while trying to preserve their right to save their seeds from one year to the next. virtually all such farmers have lost that fight. today, it is virtually impossible for seed to be saved in certain crops.

now, the E.U. is taking another significant step in the food battle.

this is why I think the post about saving bean varieties is such a wonderful idea. i'm a doom & gloom kind of thinker. I think the day will come when a virus, fungus, bacteria will attack these monocultures of corn or whatever & virtually wipe out that variety of seed - because that is what nature does. if there are not other varieties being saved by gardeners/farmers, then ....

I see the future as circling back around to many small farmers, victory gardens, urban gardeners because depending on the big boys to take care of us is a very precarious position to take and our wellbeing is not at the top of their list of priorities. in my opinion

this topic is valuable to me. I am absolutely not trying to offend anyone. I love sharing ideas and learning so much from here. if i'm offending you, that is not my intent.

 

[seedcorn]

Comparative figures are often skewed; for instance asking how much corn a small farmer can raise compared to a large farm but corn is too low an income crop unless it is subsidized by the government and the subzidization programs are usually not available to small farmers.
So far large farms have been most succesful at growing corn and soybeans but humans can't stay healthy on that diet alone. Large farms are almost 100% monocropped and monocropping depletes the soil. That has been so well documented that no one even argues the point any more.
Large farming is also wasteful of land and resources. In order to get their machinery into the fields the corn rows must be spaced farther apart than they used to be. The bare soil between the rows is an open invitation for weeds which must then be sprayed with herbicide where a small farm tills the soil to kill weeds. A small farmer can plant a second crop between the corn rows that is either non competitive with the corn or harvested before the corn is ready. Two or more crops are being grown on the same land at the same time A large farm cannot do that because it takes hand labor to plant and harvest so intercropping cannot be done because it interferes with the operation of the machinery. That might include mustard greens, beets, carrots, bush beans or quite a few others. Every bit of the soil is productive but you never see total food produced compared, only corn and soybeans.

Rows are narrowing than they use to be, not larger.

Large farms grow more than corn/beans. They also grow vegetables, hay, wheat, etc. you eat it, they grow it.

They grow one crop at a time so they can give that plant exactly what it needs. Depending on crop, they get 1-7 rotations per year.

We are learning how to farm without any tillage as tillage destroys soil tilth.

We use GMO's so we don't use insecticides allowing earthworms to prosper where tilling kills them. We are using more contact herbicides so there is little carryover in soil.

Farmers use every inch of soil available. Most of us only utilize a small part of our ground. So total productivity is poor per soil available.

Monoculture is sustainable and has been for 70 years when you take care of the soil.

 

[seedcorn]

JB, differing opinions don't offend me, welcome them. I enjoy chance for open discussion.

Those that got sued had signed an agreement to not save seed. They went into it with eyes wide open. Once they used the product, they wanted it, just didn't want to pay for it.

Like the sound of your future. IMO, we'll see fewer gardens as people don't want to work or know where their food comes from. Small farmers-except the few that have produce stands-can't currently survive due to land and machinery costs plus the amount of money it takes to pay basic living costs.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I got these quotes from the actual document in question. I got to the document through a link in Hoodats link in the first post in this thread. I dont know if this is the current version as amended or not. Its the one in the link so I used it..

Its a long document written in Legalese and Im no lawyer. I put quotes around the stuff I copied directly from that document.

Professional Operator is who this is about. Last time I checked I was not a professional at any of these.

'professional operator' means any natural or legal person carrying out, as a profession, at least one of the following activities with regard to plant reproductive material:
(a) producing;
(b) breeding;
(c) maintaining;
(d) providing services;
(e) preserving, including storing; and
(f) making available on the market.


Purpose or goals of this regulation

The aim of in situ conservation of agro-biodiversity should be further strengthened.

Room for improvement was in particular identified pertaining to legal simplification, cost reductions and efficiency gains, increased flexibility for professional operators, the level of harmonization among Member States, the role of niche and emerging markets and the conservation of agro-biodiversity and plant genetic resources.

In the context of the Convention on Biological Diversity to which the Union is a party, the Union has committed to maintain the genetic diversity of cultivated plants, and of wild relatives, and to minimise genetic erosion. That commitment complements the objective of the Union to halt biodiversity loss by 2020. In that context, certain varieties should be allowed to be produced and made available on the market even if they do not comply with the requirements concerning distinctiveness, uniformity or stability, to ensure their conservation and sustainable use and thus contribute to the sustainability of agriculture and the adaptation to climate change.


Some exemptions

the Regulation will not to apply to plant reproductive material intended for testing and scientific purposes and intended for breeding (selection) purposes. In addition, it should not apply to material intended to or maintained in gene banks, organisations and networks of ex-situ and in-situ or on farm conservation of genetic resources following national strategies on conservation of genetic resources. Furthermore, plant reproductive material exchanged in kind between two persons other than professional operators is excluded from the scope of the Regulation.

Plant reproductive material which is made available on the market only in limited quantities by small producers (niche market plant reproductive material) should be exempted from the requirement of belonging to a registered variety. That derogation is necessary to prevent undue constraints to the making available on the market of plant reproductive material, which is of lesser commercial interest, but is important for the maintenance of genetic diversity. However, it should be ensured that that derogation is not regularly used by a wide range of professional operators and it is only used by professional operators which cannot afford the costs and administrative burden of variety registration. This is important to avoid abuses of that derogation and to ensure the application of the rules of this Regulation. Therefore, niche market material should only be made available on the market by professional operators employing a small number of persons and with a small annual turnover.



A labeling requirement. If it contains GMO, it has to be on the label.

the indication, where applicable, that the plant reproductive material consists of, or contains, genetically modified organisms.

There have been a lot of comments on how this regulation threatens European home gardeners saving seeds. Looking at who this applies to and the exemptions, can anyone point to the part of this regulation that makes them feel that way?

 

[seedcorn]

& your conclusion? Forbid gardener keeping seed?

 

[thistlebloom]

Thanks Ridge, I'm glad you brought the actual information to this discussion. It clarifies the argument and delineates who is affected and how.

 

[Jared77]

So far as the family garden is concerned organic gardening is actually cheaper.

I agree provided that family has the resources. But I still believe that the high yield altered crops have their place. If you can afford to eat quality then by all means do so. However when given the alternative of buying 2 organic bananas and having to split them to make enough to go around for a hungry family or everybody in the family each getting their own banana even if its a GMO banana I know which one they'd rather have. As I mentioned before hunger really hits home for me. I've seen it too many times on too many faces from children getting a spoonful of ramen and part of a single hot dog split among their siblings to elderly folks with a nearly empty fridge except for some open cans of cat of cat food in the fridge with a dirty fork resting in the can and when asked about their medical history they tell me they are allergic to cats. (Ill let you do the math on that one) That's why I get angry that in this country we have that many people suffering from something as basic as hunger.

Corn and high fructose corn syrup is in EVERYTHING. If it wasn't such a diverse agent that could be used in so many applications and even with the pesticides at a very low cost it wouldn't be used. Is it harmful? Absolutely. But again its cost. Until people are willing to pay more for things so we use less corn (just as an example) its not going to change regardless of what we see its doing to the soil.

Hoodat wrote:
A small farmer can plant a second crop between the corn rows that is either non competitive with the corn or harvested before the corn is ready. Two or more crops are being grown on the same land at the same time A large farm cannot do that because it takes hand labor to plant and harvest so intercropping cannot be done because it interferes with the operation of the machinery. That might include mustard greens, beets, carrots, bush beans or quite a few others. Every bit of the soil is productive but you never see total food produced compared, only corn and soybeans.

I agree however that's idealistic. Maybe idealistic isn't the best choice of words. Maybe more like hopeful thinking? It can be done but at what cost? Yes they have a 2nd crop but who's going down between those rows to harvest the carrots? Who's going down the rows to pick beets? Bush beans? So you either hire migrant workers and risk ICE coming to get you and pay those costs, or your costs have gone up to pay for legal labor IF they can find someone willing to do it. When the economy took a nose dive did anybody go pick peaches or apples? Nobody it was cheaper to stay home and collect unemployment. Kids? Oh no they have travel baseball, and all these extra classes to get into college (don't even get me started on the cost of higher education) or would rather stay home and play with their smart phones and Xbox devices.

Sure you can I can do it because how many rows of corn does the home gardener plant? Or how big a plot do they plant? How many people who grow corn here are even doing anything like that to take advantage of the available space in their gardens? I don't but then I don't plant corn because of critters. That's not to point any fingers either but its idealistic.

Now if your a grocery store owner or you make a food based product say soup to sell at the grocery store which is a better investment? Buying from 30 different small scale farmers to meet your total amount of corn, or buy from say 2 large farm operations? And that's if you run a mom and pop grocery store. The one in town here sells a lot of locally grown produce but those are all family farms and they advertise who its from. People buy it to support those families. They sell it when its in season but after that they are back to whoever they get it from. These are the same businesses that buy the 4H Champion livestock and will advertise it at the meat counter too. The quality is better and they are trying to do their part but they have ties to the community. But if your say Walmart or Piggly Wiggly, or Kroger, is it worth trying to manage that many orders from that many farms to balance out what you need? The logistics would be a terrible nightmare. Plus you'd spend that much more time planning everything vs one phone call or email order or a few mouse clicks and you get what you asked for at a competitive if not better price. And if its not on your shelves when people want it because Farmer John couldn't get all his stuff to town in time they go elsewhere because they want it and they want it now.

People want the most bang for the least amount of buck right this instant. We've created this instant gratification society where you should be able to walk through a door and get ANYTHING you want. Then you tack on internet sales and its only worse. I personally hate shopping at Walmart. I try not to as often as I can because the quality of their many of their products are poor quality and they typically don't have what I want. My MIL loves it because its 1 stop shopping and is willing to sacrifice quality for convenience.

People think I'm crazy because I plant so much. But then when they come over they rave about what we cook. Well quality in is quality out.

The farmers that were taken to court has anybody pulled the cases and found out the details? Other than big bad AG sued them? Vernon Hugh Bowman v. Monsanto Company who was sued for patent infringement. Translated he stole their technology. How many other Vernon Hugh Bowmans are out there that Monsanto took to court? I'm not saying Monsanto has a spotless reputation and I'm sure they've done some things I'd disagree with too. But lets look at the big picture here. I'm not going to automatically jump on Mr Bowman's bandwagon because he thought he had a loophole to exploit. Most of what we see is rhetoric and propaganda if repeated often enough people believe it. Isn't that right 1930's Germany? We want to believe the little guy, that little guy was our Founding Fathers. The Sons and Daughters of the Revolution. That's why we side with them. Often times we're right but with the internet we really need to check our facts before we start saying "well I read this on this website here" so its has to be true.

That's exactly what that link was about the EU. They want to regulate what's being SOLD not all seeds. If I save my tomato seeds and plant them as tomato seeds that's my business. I've gotten seeds from people on here (THANK YOU AGAIN BY THE WAY!!!) I'm planting them with the trust of fellow TEG members that if they say its Japanese Trifles then I expect them to be Japanese Trifles when they grow and produce. If not I'm not mad because they didn't cost me anything but a PM on TEG.

Now if I bought them I'd be mad. Just like anybody else who's bought 1 thing and gotten another. We've all been there and we all know how that feels. That's what the EU is pushing for. They are big on keeping things pure and honestly it could be to the member nations of the EU's advantage that this policy is in effect?

WHY?!?!?!?! Wait Jared's siding with big Govt? Oh geez the paint fumes are really getting to him. Someone open a window and notify is wife to stop letting him post on TEG till he's been thoroughly examined (and he's got good health care so we know he'll be well taken care of) and released with a note from his Dr saying its ok to view controversial threads on TEG.

Anyway I'm siding with the EU on this because of what Smart Red said earlier on this thread.

Smart Red wrote:

For many years now, every veggie seed I grow is open pollinated - most are heirloom. I am perfectly happy growing and saving my own seed. I have yet to try saving seed from what little corn I grow because of the likelihood of cross pollination. This year I hope to plant my corn much later than my neighbors in hopes of getting true seed.

I understand "protecting" the genetic rights of the plant breeders, but where is my protection - my right to keep my own supply of seed free from cross pollination I DO NOT WANT?

I am interested in feeding my family good, healthy, fresh, homegrown food; not in breeding and selling hybrid seed. Do I deserve to be punished because I can't afford to surround my gardens with 1,000 acres of buffer?

She wants pure seeds. We all want pure seeds. Unless its a combination we agree to and then we know we're taking a risk. We don't want Brandywine x Lemon boy mixes, not Black Trifle x GMO mixes or anything else. We want PURE strains and that's it. So the EU has taken it one step further to help ensure this and help protect against GMO contamination by regulating what can be sold as seeds to keep strains pure. The EU is actually working for the benefit of millions of gardeners and people eat in their very own countries to ensure they get pure strains. I think it will help keep GMOs out of the picture there because they can't spread and it takes away some of the legal ground that the GMO companies have used to sue farmers. You the home gardener, the nursery owner/operator, the farmer, and the kindergardeners who are planting seed pots for Mothers Day are getting pure seeds. This way if you save your seeds you already know what you have. Isolate the flowers pollinate them and keep them pure. But if I want to go buy the German equivalent of Mortgage Lifters I know I'm getting the German equivalent of Mortgage Lifters. Its one more step to help keep us safe. It ensures diversity so in the event something does happen we have strains to work with rather than be reminiscing about red fleshy things we grew in the garden called tomatoes. But those are long gone since the big red wipeout in 2021. One more step to help protect against a man-made version of the great potato famine.

That literally just dawned on me as I was writing this. I really truly believe if someone where to contact the members on the board who proposed that legislation to the EU governing body and the members who voted it into law would say that. But no instead we have to have this chicken little the sky is falling socialist paranoia running across the internet like a plague of locusts without anybody doing any fact checking. Its on here, its on Facebook and how many other places. I'm sure the news will pick up on it and we'll have some talking heads interviewing some young organic farmer and a GMO lawyer in a suit arguing about why this has happened and who's to blame. We have people with blogs and everybody is an expert. Heck if anybody went to my blog they'd see I'm far from that but then I'm not a journalism major and I don't have time to publish a snazzy website or blog.

My fellow gardeners I really with good intentions that the regulations were passed. I get the concern and the moment anything related to Big Ag is mentioned we all assume a defensive position its no surprise that some folks read it as the next step is seed saving will be illegal. Seedcorn was the first to question it and I applaud him for it. I read it too after seeing what he said and I agreed with his stance.

I'm glad we can have this discussion. Hoodat I'm a big fan of yours and support your efforts 100%. Your a role model for where I'm trying to get to once I can get the house finished. To my fellow gardeners lets look before we leap?

Be safe out there.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I'm not a professional by their definition. If two non-professionals can trade seeds without these regulations applying, they have to be able to save seeds.

My conclusion? Not no way, not no how, does this regulation have anything in it to threaten a gardener saving their own seeds or trading them with buddies. It even exempts some of the "MOM and POP"commercial operations, you know, the little guy.

It does however require the commercial seed companies to put on the label whether the seeds have any GMO in it.

Editted to add.

But this is just my opinion. You should read the original document yourself and form your own opinion based on facts, not what some stranger on the internet said.