Double-Dug vs. No-Dig

HEChicken

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Thanks everyone. You pretty much confirmed the way I was leaning which was to remove the cardboard.

Cat - yes! I've been adding organic material ever since the first tilling. Last year I covered the entire plot with the bedding from the DLM (deep litter method) of my chicken coop. Several times. I use straw as the bedding and the bedding layer in a coop housing 100 chickens, turkeys and ducks was about 8" thick so that was quite a bit of bedding. In addition, I keep a compost crock (how elegant that sounds - in reality it is an old coffee can) on my kitchen counter and any compostable materials that the chickens won't eat, go into it. When its full, I take it to the garden, dig 4-5 holes, and bury 20-25% of the container in each hole. Fortunately, earthworms abound here and by giving them plenty to eat, they went forth and multiplied last year. One time I weeded an area where I had clearly previously buried compost. I know because I found a tiny scrap of banana peel with a sticker attached to it (from the store). But that was all I found, indicating the rest of what I had buried with it had already been incorporated.

I have also been researching cover crops for this year. I've never done a cover crop before but I think I've settled on Dutch White Clover. I mentioned to DH the other day that I might need to invest in a smaller tiller so that I can till when I need to without relying on the neighbor's "big tiller". It is a new area for me though so I appreciate the brand recommendation - it gives me a starting point to research.

Journey….I have an abundance of hay I can use as mulch if I run out of coop bedding, but DH was concerned using it was only adding weed seeds. Have you used it successfully in the past? We don't get lawn clippings here because our own mowers mulch and I've been reluctant to contact lawn services because there's no telling what chemicals have been used on the grass they are cutting. I would LOVE to get my hands on leaves but….we live in a rural area and people here don't rake their leaves and bag them like they do in the city. I probably need to go trolling nearby towns in the fall, looking for bags of leaves that people have put out at the curb :).

Lavender, that is a good point about watering. Right now it is damp under the cardboard but I imagine when it dries out, that will change, and getting water to the garden might prove difficult. Another great reason to remove the cardboard!
 

journey11

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What I've found with the hay is that any grasses that do sprout are very easy to pull out and if you have enough to lay it down really thick, not so many will sprout anyways. I go get the 2 year old left over bales from my
dad's farm and anything the horse has picked through and trampled. These are round bales, btw, so they are pretty weathered by 2 years. Or if you want to go with straw, just toss the opened bales to your chickens first and let them pick it out for you. Win, win! :)
 

AMKuska

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Pardon my ignorance -- what is this "mulching" ? And what does it do?
 

HEChicken

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Pardon my ignorance -- what is this "mulching" ? And what does it do?
Mulching is laying a layer of compostable material over a garden bed. Its primary purpose is to retain moisture. When you water (or when it rains), gravity helps the water run through the mulch to the garden bed below, but once there, the mulch acts to stop it from evaporating back out of the ground and drying it out quickly.

Mulch can also help to control weeds, as the thick layer on top of the ground blocks light that weed seeds need to germinate.

And, by using compostable material, over time it is broken down and absorbed into the soil (hence the need to reapply), which in turn improves the soil.
 

HEChicken

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What I've found with the hay is that any grasses that do sprout are very easy to pull out and if you have enough to lay it down really thick, not so many will sprout anyways. I go get the 2 year old left over bales from my
dad's farm and anything the horse has picked through and trampled. These are round bales, btw, so they are pretty weathered by 2 years. Or if you want to go with straw, just toss the opened bales to your chickens first and let them pick it out for you. Win, win! :)
Good to know. I have a couple of old round bales out in my pasture that are at least 3-4 years old so I will use them first. Our hay from last summer is what DH was most concerned about using.
 

hosspak

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What a great thread - I've just read it through from start to finish so now don't remember who said what….
I'm relieved to hear several people recommend double digging over no dig for "the first few years". While I like the no dig concept, I'm afraid there are still enough weed seeds (and in this area they blow in regardless) around that no dig would only encourage growth of weeds. My plan for counter attack includes planting every square inch of the garden this year so as to leave little room for weeds.

Something for you to think about; Do you want large chunks of cardboard floating through the soil in your garden? Compost works best when all the material is small and plentiful and mixes well with your "dirt" in order to make it a nice loam for planting. I think the no dig method (no offense) is best for people who don't want to put in the "sweat equity" you or someone mentioned. I only dig 1 spade down (now that it has been tilled down 18 inches for the first two years (very poor desert sandy dirt) but I turn it over at least 5 times between the time I removed the last plant and the time that all compost is turned in. I watered all the beds 3 times at day for 2 or 3 days. Making sure that all is soaked really deep. Then I placed heavy clear plastic sheeting over all the beds. I will keep this covered until just before my seedlings are ready to plant. What this plastic does is cooks the soil... it cooks and breaks down all the material that we turned in. This also helps kill last years roots and kills harmful bugs in the soil, but won't harm the worms because they will move deeper until the plastic is lifted. Digging also breaks up last years roots that didn't get pulled out. If you are a member of BYC, look up my profile and you can see how I use a small coop and 2 of my chickens to work each bed over a couple of weeks, then I will move it to another bed. I think I read that you have chickens (lots) and you could put them to work making the compost for you... I don't think you need to wait for an 8 inch deep litter to benefit from this chicken run bonus. I let it build up to about 2 to 3 inches, I let the flock rake it around and I water it so the dust stays down and this also helps break things down faster. Depending on the size of your run, you can rake up and remove 1/4 to 1/2 of the litter and spread that onto your beds and turn that in. Then start a new area with fresh straw, pine shavings and DE. I take it out every month or so, the girls make quick and easy work of it. Regarding weeds, please tell me how anyone can say they have never had weeds or never do any weeding (no offense) But I would like to sell them a herd of unicorns because unicorn poop is the best compost and will grow golden tomatoes... lol Weeds are weeds and they bring weeds and they will tell their weed fiends where you garden is... I have heard wise people say, "You reap what you sow"... A little work now makes for greater rewards later.... and sometimes that dosen't work... Good luck and have fun...
 

catjac1975

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Thanks everyone. You pretty much confirmed the way I was leaning which was to remove the cardboard.

Cat - yes! I've been adding organic material ever since the first tilling. Last year I covered the entire plot with the bedding from the DLM (deep litter method) of my chicken coop. Several times. I use straw as the bedding and the bedding layer in a coop housing 100 chickens, turkeys and ducks was about 8" thick so that was quite a bit of bedding. In addition, I keep a compost crock (how elegant that sounds - in reality it is an old coffee can) on my kitchen counter and any compostable materials that the chickens won't eat, go into it. When its full, I take it to the garden, dig 4-5 holes, and bury 20-25% of the container in each hole. Fortunately, earthworms abound here and by giving them plenty to eat, they went forth and multiplied last year. One time I weeded an area where I had clearly previously buried compost. I know because I found a tiny scrap of banana peel with a sticker attached to it (from the store). But that was all I found, indicating the rest of what I had buried with it had already been incorporated.

I have also been researching cover crops for this year. I've never done a cover crop before but I think I've settled on Dutch White Clover. I mentioned to DH the other day that I might need to invest in a smaller tiller so that I can till when I need to without relying on the neighbor's "big tiller". It is a new area for me though so I appreciate the brand recommendation - it gives me a starting point to research.

Journey….I have an abundance of hay I can use as mulch if I run out of coop bedding, but DH was concerned using it was only adding weed seeds. Have you used it successfully in the past? We don't get lawn clippings here because our own mowers mulch and I've been reluctant to contact lawn services because there's no telling what chemicals have been used on the grass they are cutting. I would LOVE to get my hands on leaves but….we live in a rural area and people here don't rake their leaves and bag them like they do in the city. I probably need to go trolling nearby towns in the fall, looking for bags of leaves that people have put out at the curb :).

Lavender, that is a good point about watering. Right now it is damp under the cardboard but I imagine when it dries out, that will change, and getting water to the garden might prove difficult. Another great reason to remove the cardboard!
RE the white clover. If it is a perennial I would not use it as it will endlessly reseed. Vetch reseeds but is easy to remove. We use winter rye with good results. Till it under in spring and it decomposes readily.
 

digitS'

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The only way I think perennials would work well in a garden is if they can be mowed easily and if their seeds are not allowed to invade the planting beds.

The idea I can add to Cat's is that killing that annual rye is sometimes difficult to the gardener (read, to the gardener named Steve :/). My timing has to be good and I can leave the less-than-perfect garden tool (read, the rototiller) out of the process and pull the rye with my very own digitS'.

Also, perennial rye is very commonly used for lawn grass. Don't put that stuff on your beds!! Annual (winter) rye.

Steve
 

HEChicken

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I've never planted a cover crop before so have been researching them quite a bit recently but now I'm confused again (happens easily) :/

My understanding of a cover crop was that you plant it in an empty garden bed after the crop has been harvested, let it grow and till it in after only a few weeks, before it sets seed but Cat, it sounds like you just leave it over the winter and then till it in the spring? When I first read that, I thought you must be in a milder climate than I am but I'm guessing MA is colder than where I am. How does it stand up to being snowed and iced on for several months?

Steve - got it. Annual Rye and not perennial. But even then, you are saying it is hard to kill?

Hosspak :lol: about the unicorn poop. The 8" of coop bedding? That is just since November. Since then we've been too snowed under to clean the coop and add the bedding to the garden but it will be a priority as soon as the weather warms a little. I've broken all the rules when it comes to keeping poultry, as my coop is 10x10 but houses around 100 birds. I get away with it because I have no run - so they have several acres to free-range during the day and only use the coop to sleep, eat and lay their eggs. So in the summer it can take 6 months to build up the bedding that high, but this time of year it builds up much faster. But I would really recommend to you that you consider going a little deeper than 2-3". The idea behind DLM is that the bedding will start to compost in place but that doesn't happen until it gets that bit deeper - 6-8" is optimum. What I do is start with one bale of straw on the concrete floor of the coop, and after only a short time they have pooped enough that it is time to add a second bale. All I have to do is cut the wire of the bale and spread the flakes around the coop - they do the rest in their search for wheat seeds remaining on the stems and within hours, the straw is fluffy and spread evenly throughout the coop - far better than I could have ever done it. After that, each day I sprinkle a little BOSS on top of the bedding. In their effort not to miss a single seed, they turn the bedding over again. Every single day. Once the bedding has absorbed as much poop as it can - i.e., when it reaches "saturation point", I add another bale of straw. And continue with the BOSS. As I said, my layer is now about 8" but when they turn it over and start to scratch below the surface, you can see that the bottom already looks more like dirt than it does chicken poop and straw. The other advantage to the DLM method in a cold climate is that the composting process produces heat so the bedding is not only soft and spongy for them to land on when they jump off the roosts, but it contains a little warmth as well.
 

digitS'

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HEChicken don't let any, even me :), discourage you from reasoning things out and "giving it a go." I certainly have not tried everything that has to do with gardening. My gardens are "uniquely different" - just like everyone's ;).

And, that tiller in the garage . . . it's just lucky that I'm a fragile olde guy who doesn't like to work it hard! But yes, winter rye has pretty strong survival skills. You can do enuf to kill 90% of it and have the other 37% come back and make serious trouble for you ;)!

Oh, and something like "winter" Austrian peas -- I have had about 90% of that winter-kill! Felt like I was using seed as a fertilizer. Fedco recommends that for spring planting in their state of Maine.

Steve
edited because of the darn spellchequer
 
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