Saving Seeds From Year To Year?

[heirloomgal]

Sugar Lace II was PVP

What's PVP?

Perhaps the high sugar content translates to weaker seed, as it does with supersweet corn? It does well for me when planted in warm soil for a Fall harvest, but even then the germination rate has been disappointing. It seems to have poor seed longevity as well.

It seems like that to me. I read the wrinkles in 'sweet' tasting varieties, as opposed to the smooth seeds of not so sweet peas, are less hardy because of moisture settling in those wrinkles in cooler temps and causing rot. But I think there is more too it than that, because this year I kept them in a greenhouse, only slightly moist, and some still rotted. Little Crunch and Sugar Daddy haven't even sprouted yet, if they ever will....

Survivors of an overzealous April gardener...with snow in the forecast for tomorrow

 

[Zeedman]

What's PVP?

PVP is "Plant Variety Protection", which is a form of variety protection administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture. It is less restrictive than the plant patenting used for GMOs. PVP protection is normally used for varieties created using conventional breeding techniques, and is more or less the breeder's equivalent of intellectual property rights. As a gardener, you can save seeds from PVP varieties you have purchased, and multiply PVP perennials for your own use... but not sell or share them with others. I'm not sure how applicable PVP laws are to those in other countries, which may have different laws regarding breeder's rights.

Regardless, when I last checked a few years ago, PVP protection for Sugar Lace II was scheduled to expire. The USDA link I have previously used to check if a variety was PVP appears to be outdated; so until I find a new link, I can't verify for certain that the PVP was not extended (they sometimes are). However, the lack of PVP labeling from U.S. seed companies is evidence that it no longer has protected status.

Survivors of an overzealous April gardener...with snow in the forecast for tomorrow

I can relate. We've had snow flurries all day, and the next couple nights will be below freezing. But the silver lining is that we will be dry until Saturday, so DW & I are getting some yard work done. I may even be able to turn over the home gardens, and at least mow the weeds in the slower-to-dry rural plot.

 

[seedcorn]

I’ve certainly noticed a difference in some of my tomato seeds. I don’t plan on planting any over 3 years old anymore unless it’s for seed. The 4 year old seeds I’ve planted have had significantly lower yields and smaller plants compared to 1-3 year old seed.

Once up and growing -being fed by roots- IF the same genetics, there should be no differences. Problem with “home saved” seed is that you can get cross pollination from insects and never know it-that can be a good thing or a bad thing.

 

[Artichoke Lover]

Once up and growing -being fed by roots- IF the same genetics, there should be no differences. Problem with “home saved” seed is that you can get cross pollination from insects and never know it-that can be a good thing or a bad thing.

Not home saved seed. Came out of the same packet. Even after planting out they never did as well as the past few years. They barely even produced. I purchased fresh seed this year and they have been doing great so far.

 

[Zeedman]

Once up and growing -being fed by roots- IF the same genetics, there should be no differences.

That was my assumption also, but my old-vs-new observations of Pizza pepper last year caused me to question that. The vigor of the older seeds after germination was noticeably lower than the newer seeds. The plants grown from newer seed - although germinating later - were larger at the time of transplanting. I had hoped to compare their yield, but the plants grown from newer seed (caged for seed saving) were severely infested by aphids, and stunted.

 

[Ridgerunner]

A thought on this. If the old seed germinates earlier, the weather is likely cooler. New seeds planted later would be warmer from the start so perhaps grow faster. Is seed planted earlier stunted by the cooler weather? Always glad to help confuse the issue.

I think I've noticed that seeds from the same packet often don't have any real difference in production date even if planted a little later. I put it down to the growing weather being warmer.

 

[Zeedman]

A thought on this. If the old seed germinates earlier, the weather is likely cooler. New seeds planted later would be warmer from the start so perhaps grow faster. Is seed planted earlier stunted by the cooler weather? Always glad to help confuse the issue.

I think I've noticed that seeds from the same packet often don't have any real difference in production date even if planted a little later. I put it down to the growing weather being warmer.

All of the seeds were started indoors under identical lighted, thermostatically-controlled conditions.

 

[Zeedman]

Problem with “home saved” seed is that you can get cross pollination from insects and never know it-that can be a good thing or a bad thing.

In the case of most vegetables, that is true. Snap bean crosses - even with other snap beans - are usually stringy & inferior. Tomato crosses are usually small (somewhat larger than a cherry) on rampant plants. Squash crosses might be visually interesting, but nearly always of poor quality.

Pepper crosses can be more interesting & seem more likely to be useful. In spite of varieties grown for seed being completely enclosed with floating row cover while flowering, I've had several crosses from saved pepper seed. (I've yet to figure out how this is occurring, but I separated the cages by greater distances in 2020.) What surprised me is that nearly all of the pepper crosses produced very good peppers; I'm actually trying to stabilize several of those crosses.

This was a cross that appeared last year. The true-to-type is on the left, the cross on the right:


The cross produced thick, sweet bell-like peppers in large numbers, under heavy leaf cover... so I thought I would grow some of the crossed seed this year to see what might appear in the F2. I also planted a sample of the true-to-type seed to check it for purity, since both plants were grown in the same cage.

The results have already been surprising, even as seedlings. In the foreground, the larger plants in the back of the tray are the F2 cross, the ones in front of it are the female parent - both from 2020 seed:


I am not only surprised by the relative vigor of the cross compared to the parent, but by the apparent uniformity of the F2. This gives me hope that this cross could be stabilized.

 

[heirloomgal]

In the case of most vegetables, that is true. Snap bean crosses - even with other snap beans - are usually stringy & inferior. Tomato crosses are usually small (somewhat larger than a cherry) on rampant plants. Squash crosses might be visually interesting, but nearly always of poor quality.

Pepper crosses can be more interesting & seem more likely to be useful. In spite of varieties grown for seed being completely enclosed with floating row cover while flowering, I've had several crosses from saved pepper seed. (I've yet to figure out how this is occurring, but I separated the cages by greater distances in 2020.) What surprised me is that nearly all of the pepper crosses produced very good peppers; I'm actually trying to stabilize several of those crosses.

This was a cross that appeared last year. The true-to-type is on the left, the cross on the right:
View attachment 40297 View attachment 40298

The cross produced thick, sweet bell-like peppers in large numbers, under heavy leaf cover... so I thought I would grow some of the crossed seed this year to see what might appear in the F2. I also planted a sample of the true-to-type seed to check it for purity, since both plants were grown in the same cage.

The results have already been surprising, even as seedlings. In the foreground, the larger plants in the back of the tray are the F2 cross, the ones in front of it are the female parent - both from 2020 seed:
View attachment 40303

I am not only surprised by the relative vigor of the cross compared to the parent, but by the apparent uniformity of the F2. This gives me hope that this cross could be stabilized.

I didn't know that hybrid vigour could continue in the F2 generation. I thought the vigour was limited to the F1 only. That's interesting. I'll be curious to see what you get in that F2 generation.

 

[seedcorn]

Even in same variety, there are genetic differences. When you or a company select seed, no 2 seeds are identical. Over time differences will be made.

Weather will affect the same variety differently. Prime example is corn. Cool, wet weather early is #1 yield robber.

I started with an OP variety of okra. Over years of selection, I’ve got a strain that doesn’t go woody (as quick) with cool weather. Still get different plants as genes still involved.