2022 Little Easy Bean Network - We Are Beans Without Borders

flowerbug

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Is it 3 correct-looking growouts to show that seed is true?

3 to 10 depending upon how mixed up the genes are.

i'm happy if i can get 3 in a row.

some beans i've not even been able to get them to do two in a row. i've left Monster aside this year because some Monster children have some interesting patterns (so far one of those is coming up on year three and it looks great :) - a few others might too but those are later beans so ...). Monster is hopeless (as a Monster should be i guess :) that was an interesting choice of a name i gave to that one and it should perhaps be a warning to name your new beans with code names instead until you really do know what they're like :) )...
 

Bluejay77

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hmm. I think I'll keep the pods from each plant separate. If there are any with mixed seed coats, then we'll know which plant it came from and will have the option of isolating all of its seed (even if they look correct).

Is it 3 correct-looking growouts to show that seed is true?
Yes this is correct. It was also stated by a Horticultural professor at the University of New Hampshire who taught plant breeding since the 1940's. So the first grow gives you all the same seed coat and plants and blossom color. So after self polinating there still could be genes in there waiting to make new gene pairs. The new seed will look like the seed mother in a stable variety, but if your working with a bean that was orignally outcrossed it will take two seasons to make sure there is not genes lurking in your once outcrossed bean ready to make new gene combintions. When the second year of plants self polinate again and still the seeds look like the seed mother. A third grow out will be the final proof that there was no odd genes waiting to make new combinations. The third grow out is the second generation of the second year grow out. So you grow out each new generation of seed to do this. You don't go back and use any previous years seeds.

Some beans do take longer to stablize. So lets say you get beans in year 5 that are finally all the same seed coats plant types, pods and blossom color. Then to prove it out you do grow outs to get exactly the same characteristics for season 6 and 7 too. Then you got your proof you have a stable bean.
 
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Zeedman

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Well this is just as much a mystery to me as it is for you. I have no idea how a pole bean could turn into a bush bean in another season. Unless The first time I planted this pole bean it was outcrossed with a bush, but produced all the same seed and had the genes lurking inside it's newest embryos for a bush type and then now we have the bush beans this seaons. However I do have a hard time with that because I can't imagine the pole beans producing that many seeds and have all of them produce bush types since bush is a recessive trait without even a single plant becoming a strong climber. All the outcrosses I've ever seen usually produce a mixed bag of plant types and seed coats.
Well in my garden, what has been a bush bean for 2 generations, has suddenly transformed into pole habit. The runners of Uzice are 3-4' long at present, and still show no sign of termination. The plants - all of them - are much more vigorous than previous grow outs too. The plants from which the seeds were grown were isolated by both 30' of distance & barrier crops between, and all were bush... so the chances of 100% of the seed being crossed are basically nil.

I believe that beans are genetically capable of displaying different characteristics, depending upon soil, weather, or perhaps other triggers which are less obvious. Some beans which grow as half-runner / short pole for me (such as Uzice Speckled Wax) have been reported as full pole by others I've sent seed.
 

heirloomgal

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I pulled up about two of my stunted Karachaganak plants. The roots were not hollow, but the root system was very sparse.

Also notice that my Pale Gray Lavender are also growing as a bush bean. It was a beautiful pole bean the last time I grew it.
So we're experiencing the same thing with PGL?

I planted this year pole bean Kiagara Mame from the Blyth, Ontario grower. I was very excited to try this bean, and boy oh boy it has not flourished. One plant survived and now it's growing as a distorted very tiny bush. It's not that its crossed, it's that the flies did so much damage to the roots at an early stage they permanently stunted. Brejo, right next to it, planted the same time, did much better and climbed it's pole. I hope next year I have better success with KM, I just didn't get lucky with early June weather with that bean.

It makes me wonder, if young bean plants get attacked by bean seed flies, it might alter their growth pattern as a stress symptom, like my Kiagara Mame? I wonder if this may be why the PGA grew so oddly for me and actually did not produce very well in terms of seed volume?
 
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heirloomgal

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Well in my garden, what has been a bush bean for 2 generations, has suddenly transformed into pole habit. The runners of Uzice are 3-4' long at present, and still show no sign of termination. The plants - all of them - are much more vigorous than previous grow outs too. The plants from which the seeds were grown were isolated by both 30' of distance & barrier crops between, and all were bush... so the chances of 100% of the seed being crossed are basically nil.

I believe that beans are genetically capable of displaying different characteristics, depending upon soil, weather, or perhaps other triggers which are less obvious. Some beans which grow as half-runner / short pole for me (such as Uzice Speckled Wax) have been reported as full pole by others I've sent seed.
The Uzice Speckled Wax I have grew as a HUGE pole. Is this the growth habit you've observed too?
 

meadow

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In correspondence with a commercial grower, I was told that beans are more susceptible to cross-pollination during heat stress or drought. She kindly checked two of her reference books for isolation distances and found that "70 feet is usually sufficient but if you are looking for more assurance, they recommend 300 feet."
 

flowerbug

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In correspondence with a commercial grower, I was told that beans are more susceptible to cross-pollination during heat stress or drought.

makes perfect sense to me if by that it means that the pollinator species are doing a lot more work gathering nectar and pollen from fewer flowers.

i also know that claims of few cross pollinations between beans and that it is rare really depends upon isolation distances, but also how many native bees you have around. when i'm in the gardens there are plenty of bees working of many species.

i get crosses, i'm ok with that. in some seed lines it is exactly what i want to happen.

so far though in the seed line i really do want it to happen i'm not seeing much difference yet. perhaps two plants out of thousands through the years have been notably different (and not in ways i wanted so the plants were culled out). to me that means that Purple Dove is pretty stable compared to many others i've grown.


She kindly checked two of her reference books for isolation distances and found that "70 feet is usually sufficient but if you are looking for more assurance, they recommend 300 feet."

i sure don't have that kind of space... :(

the real monkey wrench in the works is when you get a cross happen in the middle of your trials and you don't catch it soon enough so the seeds are mixed. it then takes work to get them segregated again.
 

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