Cow manure

[seedcorn]

I don't want to go to a world without antibiotics, too much death and suffering. I have no problems with responsible usage to actually treat something. To me responsible usage means to not use antibiotics as a preventative. Only use them to target a specific condition when it is warranted, either humans or animals. If you start taking one, take the full course, do not stop when you are feeling better. The last bugs to be killed are the ones with the most resistance to that specific antibiotic so you risk breeding a superbug by stopping too early. it's not just overuse that can create a superbug.

That carries over into other things. I don't treat chickens for mites, lice, or worms unless mites, lice, or worms are present. I don't put any insecticide, fungicide, or any other "icide" (organic or non-organic) on my plants unless I have a specific target. Then I try to pick one that bests targets what I've going after and does the least harm to the environment. I try to use it in a way that threatens beneficials as little as possible, like spraying late in the day so it will have lost a lot of strength when the pollinators return in numbers the next day. I don't care if it is natural or man-made, a poison is a poison and needs to be treated with respect. To be "certified organic" you can only use approved natural "icides". There are some natural "icides" that do so much damage to the environment that certified organic bans them too. There are more criteria than whether or not they are natural.

@ninnymary once a cow has been treated with antibiotics she is forever not organic. That's the way certified organic works. The rules are the rules and that is a rule they chose. There are no loopholes there. Another interesting rule is that for a plant to be considered organic it has to be grown from organic seed. It's parents have to be organic. No so with animals. It doesn't matter if their parents are organic or not. As long as they eat nothing except certified organic approved food after they are born or hatched or\\and are otherwise treated as organic, animals can be considered organic. Try not to think on that too hard.

Mary, I understand your thinking. To me, once the withdrawal time for antibiotics, other drugs, or pesticides has has passed, you are good to go. But that is not true for certified organics. Once tainted always tainted. That' justs the way certified organics works.

Actually with seed, that is not how it works. They can and do use seed not raised organically.

As far as injectable drugs into their animals, they don’t see the sale barn unless they become unprofitable. I know, I know, the guidelines say but there are loop holes and then there is how it is really done. Just like organic animals are not to be fed GMO corn-guess what is fed to them? Don’t ask, don’t tell.....

 

[Nyboy]

Antibiotics in my dairy cows doesn't bother me. Someone drinking milk out of container and putting it back in fridge

 

[Ridgerunner]

Actually with seed, that is not how it works. They can and do use seed not raised organically.

As far as injectable drugs into their animals, they don’t see the sale barn unless they become unprofitable. I know, I know, the guidelines say but there are loop holes and then there is how it is really done. Just like organic animals are not to be fed GMO corn-guess what is fed to them? Don’t ask, don’t tell.....

Once again, I'll copy an excerpt and the link. There are exceptions but (a) is the expected standard.

I think the difference in what we are saying is that I'm quoting the rules and you are telling us what you actually see when you are on the front lines. I personally don't doubt you are seeing all that.


Electronic Code of Federal Regulations

e-CFR data is current as of May 11, 2018

Title 7 → Subtitle B → Chapter I → Subchapter M → Part 205 → Subpart C → §205.204


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Title 7: Agriculture

PART 205—NATIONAL ORGANIC PROGRAM

Subpart C—Organic Production and Handling Requirements


§205.204 Seeds and planting stock practice standard.

(a) The producer must use organically grown seeds, annual seedlings, and planting stock: Except, That,

(1) Nonorganically produced, untreated seeds and planting stock may be used to produce an organic crop when an equivalent organically produced variety is not commercially available: Except, That, organically produced seed must be used for the production of edible sprouts;

(2) Nonorganically produced seeds and planting stock that have been treated with a substance included on the National List of synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production may be used to produce an organic crop when an equivalent organically produced or untreated variety is not commercially available;

(3) Nonorganically produced annual seedlings may be used to produce an organic crop when a temporary variance has been granted in accordance with §205.290(a)(2);

(4) Nonorganically produced planting stock to be used to produce a perennial crop may be sold, labeled, or represented as organically produced only after the planting stock has been maintained under a system of organic management for a period of no less than 1 year; and

(5) Seeds, annual seedlings, and planting stock treated with prohibited substances may be used to produce an organic crop when the application of the materials is a requirement of Federal or State phytosanitary regulations.


https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...8cc967fe&mc=true&node=se7.3.205_1204&rgn=div8

 

[seedcorn]

See rule #1-3. All they have to do is say they can’t find that variety in organic.

The reality of the situation does not equal the rules.

 

[flowerbug]

Antibiotics in my dairy cows doesn't bother me. Someone drinking milk out of container and putting it back in fridge

don't ever study what milk actually is...

 

[flowerbug]

See rule #1-3. All they have to do is say they can’t find that variety in organic.

The reality of the situation does not equal the rules.

if people see violations and don't report them then they are involved in ruining it to some degree. since most people don't really give a crap anyways they don't really have any incentive to report violations.

one reason why i've never gotten into organic farming is because i think the regulations are ok, but since they allow applications of certain things i don't consider it really a natural product. i will still take it over non-organic if i can.

i agree that if a cow is treated with anti-biotics it should not be sold as organic.

all i want is clear labels about what i am buying and where it was produced so i can buy what i would like to eat. the industry being against clear labels tells me all i want to know about what is going on.

as for being able to buy organic feed, it's available, but you do have to pay for it like anything else... if your region doesn't have enough demand to support the infrastructure for moving it in efficiently then perhaps you need to be a part of a group that gets involved with sourcing it. it's no excuse to go around rules just because you've not done your homework and gotten it set up right. to me that would be a big part of any change from conventional agriculture to organic - making sure the supply chain is there to support it...

 

[seedcorn]

What people fail to recognize, there isn’t enough organic grain grown to supply the organic feed sold.....do the math.

Lot of problems with labeling food with #1 being liability law suits.

 

[baymule]

What people fail to recognize, there isn’t enough organic grain grown to supply the organic feed sold.....do the math.

Lot of problems with labeling food with #1 being liability law suits.

Not to mention the high price of organic animal feed. About double the price of regular feed. I am raising Cornish Cross chickens for meat. A bag of 22% chick starter crumbles is $15.99 for 50 pounds. A bag of organic chick starter is $25.49 for 40 pounds. I am using the regular feed. So far I have spent $264 for feed for 50 chickens. I have butchered 14, hope to get the rest butchered this week and next week.

Would I like to use organic feed for all my animals? Yes! But the feed bill is already high. I do use a non GMO feed for the chickens. Regular layer pellets are $12.79 for 50 pounds, what I buy is $26.98 for 50 pounds. It's crazy.

 

[seedcorn]

@baymule What bothers me the most, is that I wish I believed you were buying organic when you pay the premium. Non-GMO, strong possibility. Farmers get a $.25-.40/bushel premium to grow non-GMO corn. You do the math as to the profit in labeling something non-GMO.

 

[Nyboy]

Would it be possible to raise chickens without grain just from garden produce? I know timing would be very important